Case Study: Road "Tuning" vs Dyno Tuning (Merged)
I'm a new Evo owner (about a month.. maybe a little more). When I first read the posting by Shiv I knew immediately whom the "other" non-named tuner was and who the "brand X" part supplier was. My immediate thought was that it was a pretty nasty post but I read on and saw the dyno results – WOW, nice results but then…. When he mentioned returning the car to stock and that his tune added that much more power then my common sense meter started bouncing off the rev limiter and something is smelling really fishy.
I'm sorry, but I for one don’t believe there is THAT much difference in tuners expertise, methods, whatever. PERIOD. That said, there's got to be another reason for the differences reflected on that dyno printout. Also, a real tip off for me was when Shiv started bashing BR parts that MANY others swear by - That was really stupid and immediately discredited his claim. I’ll retract this if someone corroborates that BR parts only reduce HP numbers, but it seems to me that someone who’s been in the 4G63 world this long would have been called out long ago if that were true.
The truth is unless the car was tuned on the same day and properly tested independently by a non-biased tester on the same dyno then you could produce any results you want to. Dyno results are easily cheated and without an independent doing the testing then it’s bs. I personally think of it as nasty failed marketing attempt.
I'm sorry, but I for one don’t believe there is THAT much difference in tuners expertise, methods, whatever. PERIOD. That said, there's got to be another reason for the differences reflected on that dyno printout. Also, a real tip off for me was when Shiv started bashing BR parts that MANY others swear by - That was really stupid and immediately discredited his claim. I’ll retract this if someone corroborates that BR parts only reduce HP numbers, but it seems to me that someone who’s been in the 4G63 world this long would have been called out long ago if that were true.
The truth is unless the car was tuned on the same day and properly tested independently by a non-biased tester on the same dyno then you could produce any results you want to. Dyno results are easily cheated and without an independent doing the testing then it’s bs. I personally think of it as nasty failed marketing attempt.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Cars with boost leaks always make less power than cars that are holding good boost
There are several resaons for this
#1 The car with the boost leak must close the wastgate actuator tighter to generate the same boost level - thus creating more back pressure
There are several resaons for this
#1 The car with the boost leak must close the wastgate actuator tighter to generate the same boost level - thus creating more back pressure
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
#2 The car with a boost leak has metered air exacaping out of the turbo system which means injector duty is being added for air that is not there - -= ergo rich
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
#3 The car with a boost leak will not run in the proper mapping cells that it was tuned to run in and the tune is thrown off
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Simply put - a Stage II car falling to 16 psi has a fairly significant boost leak and is not running properly
Only a total *** insert name calling / bashing here ***
I was not there to observe the honestly and accuracy of the dyno testing.
The only thing I have heard about Shiv's dyno veracity is what was posted by the Preseident of Sparco USA who posted that Shiv had intentionally manipulated his air temp sensor input by placing the intake temp probe near the exhuast in an attampt to gain a hugely high ambeint temp reading of 160 plus degrees which adds heaps of power to the car.
Only a total *** insert name calling / bashing here ***
I was not there to observe the honestly and accuracy of the dyno testing.
The only thing I have heard about Shiv's dyno veracity is what was posted by the Preseident of Sparco USA who posted that Shiv had intentionally manipulated his air temp sensor input by placing the intake temp probe near the exhuast in an attampt to gain a hugely high ambeint temp reading of 160 plus degrees which adds heaps of power to the car.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
It remains pure conjecture as to how much power would have of could have been picked up by correcting the boost leak as obviosuly no one at Vishnu was trying to help this customer resolve his problem - Shiv was trying to manipulate the situation as a marketing ploy to show how great his tuning and ideas are
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I can not say I blame him - becuase evetrytime I get a car in here with an Exede on it I flat out tell the customers that its time to remove the exede and get a good reflash. *** insert indirect bashing here ***
It seems that even shiv himself has now seen the light with his recent promotion of good old reflash technology - GOOD WORK SHIV !
It seems that even shiv himself has now seen the light with his recent promotion of good old reflash technology - GOOD WORK SHIV !
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I hear that Shiv has... *** insert more bashing here ***
- Steve
Originally Posted by Mr. Evo IX
I'm a new Evo owner (about a month.. maybe a little more). When I first read the posting by Shiv I knew immediately whom the "other" non-named tuner was and who the "brand X" part supplier was. My immediate thought was that it was a pretty nasty post but I read on and saw the dyno results – WOW, nice results but then…. When he mentioned returning the car to stock and that his tune added that much more power then my common sense meter started bouncing off the rev limiter and something is smelling really fishy.
I'm sorry, but I for one don’t believe there is THAT much difference in tuners expertise, methods, whatever. PERIOD. That said, there's got to be another reason for the differences reflected on that dyno printout. Also, a real tip off for me was when Shiv started bashing BR parts that MANY others swear by - That was really stupid and immediately discredited his claim. I’ll retract this if someone corroborates that BR parts only reduce HP numbers, but it seems to me that someone who’s been in the 4G63 world this long would have been called out long ago if that were true.
The truth is unless the car was tuned on the same day and properly tested independently by a non-biased tester on the same dyno then you could produce any results you want to. Dyno results are easily cheated and without an independent doing the testing then it’s bs. I personally think of it as nasty failed marketing attempt.
I'm sorry, but I for one don’t believe there is THAT much difference in tuners expertise, methods, whatever. PERIOD. That said, there's got to be another reason for the differences reflected on that dyno printout. Also, a real tip off for me was when Shiv started bashing BR parts that MANY others swear by - That was really stupid and immediately discredited his claim. I’ll retract this if someone corroborates that BR parts only reduce HP numbers, but it seems to me that someone who’s been in the 4G63 world this long would have been called out long ago if that were true.
The truth is unless the car was tuned on the same day and properly tested independently by a non-biased tester on the same dyno then you could produce any results you want to. Dyno results are easily cheated and without an independent doing the testing then it’s bs. I personally think of it as nasty failed marketing attempt.
I am the one who will put up the car, and see what the "differences" are. I appreciate both of you for what you are doing, and have heard good things from Vishnu owners (bias), and also excellent stuff from Dynoflash. And of course we all know what contributions Bushur has made as far as the DSM's and Evo communities go.
And besides, I have never met Al, and I want to see what shoes he is talking about polishing!
How should I go about doing this? Shiv you dynoed it without the 280's and Methanol. I have your Chicago Dyno day map on 110 Leaded. If I dyno it with the 110Leaded, and NO alky, how much difference is the 280's over the 272's? That would be the only difference.
Is there a map of like mods you can send me? With the 280's and Meth?
I can dyno it WITH the stock airbox, any configuration you want to see, Dynoflash alone, Xede alone, whatever you guys agree on.
And I have a Blitz air "cone" and intake, sitting in my garage, which I can slap on for a dyno-run, to compare the cone vs stock box, etc...
I don't dislike either of you, but I wonder (personally) what the difference ACTUALLY is between you two. I don't think it is that big of a difference, do you? You guys must, but we will see.
I told them at Bushur, they can have my car as long as they need it, to do a comparo.
Anyone call foul on this? Should I do it? Or should I put this on another thread?
And besides, I have never met Al, and I want to see what shoes he is talking about polishing!
How should I go about doing this? Shiv you dynoed it without the 280's and Methanol. I have your Chicago Dyno day map on 110 Leaded. If I dyno it with the 110Leaded, and NO alky, how much difference is the 280's over the 272's? That would be the only difference.
Is there a map of like mods you can send me? With the 280's and Meth?
I can dyno it WITH the stock airbox, any configuration you want to see, Dynoflash alone, Xede alone, whatever you guys agree on.
And I have a Blitz air "cone" and intake, sitting in my garage, which I can slap on for a dyno-run, to compare the cone vs stock box, etc...
I don't dislike either of you, but I wonder (personally) what the difference ACTUALLY is between you two. I don't think it is that big of a difference, do you? You guys must, but we will see.
I told them at Bushur, they can have my car as long as they need it, to do a comparo.
Anyone call foul on this? Should I do it? Or should I put this on another thread?
Originally Posted by Mr. Evo IX
The truth is unless the car was tuned on the same day and properly tested independently by a non-biased tester on the same dyno then you could produce any results you want to. Dyno results are easily cheated and without an independent doing the testing then it’s bs. I personally think of it as nasty failed marketing attempt.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=175673
Look at the first post and scroll down to see the EVO 9 results (3rd graph from the top). One can see that the results are nearly identical to what was tested yesterday at our shop. There is really no conspiracy going on
Evolving Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 430
Likes: 0
From: rancho cucamonga
Originally Posted by SuperHatch
Lets look at one thing here, and nothing else, the VERY FIRST DYNO PLOT.
Can we please ignore all the hating and flaming prior to this and just answer that question objectively for me? Please?
- Steve
Can we please ignore all the hating and flaming prior to this and just answer that question objectively for me? Please?
- Steve
vs. his own BASEMAP....which made more OVERALL power. Now, when comparing both "custom" tunes.....its obvious that Shivs dyno tune makes WAY more power and torque almost everywhere.
p.s.-Shiv, will u please tune my SRT-4?
Originally Posted by blonde
ALRIGHT, I WILL SAY THIS FOR THE LAST TIME AND I WILL USE ONLY CAPS BECAUSE I AM PISSED AND YELLING:
YOU ARE ALL ACTING LIKE KIDS!!!!!
this has got to stop, you are giving all of us a bad name and i for one am ashamed to be a part of this. instead of setting an example for the members and showing what this hobby is all about, all i see is vendors that are cursing each other and using name calling and cheap shots to get their point across. we have seen it going on for quite awhile now and it is time that this freak show stops. if you can't even have 1 SINGLE mature discussion than i suggest that you sign up for some communication classes. i can also promise you that even though we appreciate you as vendors, there is a limit to how much we can take from you and soon enough we will break and end this.
now, we have asked you time and time again to stay out of each others way and you have done just the oppesite. i am sick and tired of spending so much time cleaning your mess that could be otherwise spent heling members. i am sure that i am not alone on this.
YOU ARE ALL ACTING LIKE KIDS!!!!!
this has got to stop, you are giving all of us a bad name and i for one am ashamed to be a part of this. instead of setting an example for the members and showing what this hobby is all about, all i see is vendors that are cursing each other and using name calling and cheap shots to get their point across. we have seen it going on for quite awhile now and it is time that this freak show stops. if you can't even have 1 SINGLE mature discussion than i suggest that you sign up for some communication classes. i can also promise you that even though we appreciate you as vendors, there is a limit to how much we can take from you and soon enough we will break and end this.
now, we have asked you time and time again to stay out of each others way and you have done just the oppesite. i am sick and tired of spending so much time cleaning your mess that could be otherwise spent heling members. i am sure that i am not alone on this.
I have no interest in discussing Shiv or his products and I have gone out of my way to not even discuss him or his prducts in any fashion what so ever for a long time. I prefer to let the results and customer word of mouth speak for my work.
However - finding a thread like this - actually TWO threads like this - (one here and on on the Vishnu forum) in which Shiv is attacking both my work and Buschur's work in a snide manner and IMHO a very offensive manner is not something that I can just ignore.
Before I responded I made a complaint about the nature of this thread which I feel is ill advised and only one which would lead to conflict and waste of time - the thread was moved to this section.
With no moderation of Shiv's comments - I feel I must respond to his very unfair and unresonable "comparsison"
Again - I have no interest in wasting my time to attack Shiv or discuss him or his product - he should simply show the same restraint and not make these kind of posts
If the customers in question choose to explain their experiences or problems then that is a seperate matter.
I am heeding your request to refrain from further comment on this thread, and appologize that I became so heated
I do not like to have my hard work mocked and ridiculed. I take a lot of pride in what I do and work very hard to do my best. This kind of thread really pisses me off.
Further - David Buschur is a very had working guy who has always made great products at reasonable prices and has always supported this forum and community. It pains be 10 times more to see his prodcuts attacked in this manner as well.
Thanks Blonde.
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jan 5, 2006 at 10:58 AM.
Originally Posted by Rob'Z
OK, here is MY OPINION:
Shiv NEVER said any names or brands in his origional post.
Al brought up the names.
Shiv is posting dyno graphs with all relative info.
Al's dyno is a F'ing road! How ghetto/illegal is that?
Shiv is at least being respectful and not participating in the 3rd grade name calling.
Al is the origional e-thug.
Shiv can spell.
Al CANNOT.
As for this statement..."Remeber folk - BOOST = POWER"
This is not entirely true. Boost is the measured restriction of airflow into an engine. An actuall increase in airflow = more power. If you installed a resrictor plate in the UICP without changng ANYTHING ELSE you would see an increase in boost pressue but you would NOT see an increas in power. In fact you would most likely see a decrease.
I won't hold this against you Al because most people don't know the difference between restriction and CFM.
Shiv NEVER said any names or brands in his origional post.
Al brought up the names.
Shiv is posting dyno graphs with all relative info.
Al's dyno is a F'ing road! How ghetto/illegal is that?
Shiv is at least being respectful and not participating in the 3rd grade name calling.
Al is the origional e-thug.
Shiv can spell.
Al CANNOT.
As for this statement..."Remeber folk - BOOST = POWER"
This is not entirely true. Boost is the measured restriction of airflow into an engine. An actuall increase in airflow = more power. If you installed a resrictor plate in the UICP without changng ANYTHING ELSE you would see an increase in boost pressue but you would NOT see an increas in power. In fact you would most likely see a decrease.
I won't hold this against you Al because most people don't know the difference between restriction and CFM.
Ignoring the post-tune Vishnu numbers, I'm looking at the first run with the shelf Vishnu map vs. the Dynoflash tune as the car drove up. The boost is nearly identical in most places.
And to me, one thing really stands out: One of these guys already has a handle on how to manipulate MiVEC for the best possible power, and the other one hasn't figured it out yet. IMO, this is because Vishnu has been tuning cars professionally for several years, and Dynoflash only recently picked it up a couple of years ago.
If you use your eyes, actually LOOK at the graphs, and understand, no amount of screaming and typing in a rage in attempt to divert the discussion to someone's aftermarket parts and away from tuning can mask the fact that the Vishnu ECUtek maps for the IX are very good, and the MiVEC control is outstanding in midrange delivery, especially when compared to any VIII on the same dyno.
And to me, one thing really stands out: One of these guys already has a handle on how to manipulate MiVEC for the best possible power, and the other one hasn't figured it out yet. IMO, this is because Vishnu has been tuning cars professionally for several years, and Dynoflash only recently picked it up a couple of years ago.
If you use your eyes, actually LOOK at the graphs, and understand, no amount of screaming and typing in a rage in attempt to divert the discussion to someone's aftermarket parts and away from tuning can mask the fact that the Vishnu ECUtek maps for the IX are very good, and the MiVEC control is outstanding in midrange delivery, especially when compared to any VIII on the same dyno.
Originally Posted by Mr. Evo IX
I'm a new Evo owner (about a month.. maybe a little more). When I first read the posting by Shiv I knew immediately whom the "other" non-named tuner was and who the "brand X" part supplier was. My immediate thought was that it was a pretty nasty post but I read on and saw the dyno results – WOW, nice results but then…. When he mentioned returning the car to stock and that his tune added that much more power then my common sense meter started bouncing off the rev limiter and something is smelling really fishy.
I'm sorry, but I for one don’t believe there is THAT much difference in tuners expertise, methods, whatever. PERIOD. That said, there's got to be another reason for the differences reflected on that dyno printout. Also, a real tip off for me was when Shiv started bashing BR parts that MANY others swear by - That was really stupid and immediately discredited his claim. I’ll retract this if someone corroborates that BR parts only reduce HP numbers, but it seems to me that someone who’s been in the 4G63 world this long would have been called out long ago if that were true.
The truth is unless the car was tuned on the same day and properly tested independently by a non-biased tester on the same dyno then you could produce any results you want to. Dyno results are easily cheated and without an independent doing the testing then it’s bs. I personally think of it as nasty failed marketing attempt.
I'm sorry, but I for one don’t believe there is THAT much difference in tuners expertise, methods, whatever. PERIOD. That said, there's got to be another reason for the differences reflected on that dyno printout. Also, a real tip off for me was when Shiv started bashing BR parts that MANY others swear by - That was really stupid and immediately discredited his claim. I’ll retract this if someone corroborates that BR parts only reduce HP numbers, but it seems to me that someone who’s been in the 4G63 world this long would have been called out long ago if that were true.
The truth is unless the car was tuned on the same day and properly tested independently by a non-biased tester on the same dyno then you could produce any results you want to. Dyno results are easily cheated and without an independent doing the testing then it’s bs. I personally think of it as nasty failed marketing attempt.
My point here is that this is in my opinion a strategy of oportunism from Vishnu. There are many things and factors here that throws the logical off board.
Known aftermarket parts making less power? a MBC and a CAI making less power? honestly , when have you heard that you put these two parts and your car runs slower?
There is no doubt here guys, Al has the tools and the knowledge to make power from your car, that is what he does best. If the customer's car has mechanical issues it will hinder the final results.
I have read many, mnay, many topics in which Al actually had fixed customer leaks before tuning the cars and that is something not mentioned here.
Do you guys think Al is incompetent? Cmon guys, he knows the Evos very well and he had helped many people in the past with boost leaks.
I strongly believe that the boost leak theory is mostlikely the logical epicenter of this topic, a boost leak clearly and fairly explains the lack of results.
my .2c
Last edited by fromWRXtoEVO; Jan 5, 2006 at 11:34 AM.
Originally Posted by nigletsyz
Have you really read the entire post? It has already been discussed that there was a boost leak. Why is that so difficult for everyone to understand?
I've read this entire post and I don't like or appreciate the bickering. However, I'm trying to learn from this. I have two simple questions...
Was the 1G BOV crushed?
What effect on the tune would a leaky BOV have?
Was the 1G BOV crushed?
What effect on the tune would a leaky BOV have?
Originally Posted by fromWRXtoEVO
Thanks MREVOIX. That is what I tried to say 50 threads back. Vishnu is a great company, don't get me wrong they have a great line of products agreat shop and they have some reputable fame and experience.
My point here is that this is in my opinion a strategy of oportunism from Vishnu. There are many things and factors here that throws the logical off board.
Known aftermarket parts making less power? a MBC and a CAI making less power? honestly , when have you heard that you put these two parts and your car runs slower?
There is no doubt here guys, Al has the tools and the knowledge to make power from your car, that is what he does best. If the customer's car has mechanical issues it will hinder the final results.
I have read many, mnay, many topics in which Al actually had fixed customer leaks before tuning the cars and that is something not mentioned here.
Do you guys think Al is incompetent? Cmon guys, he knows the Evos very well and he had helped many people in the past with boost leaks.
I strongly believe that the boost leak theory is mostlikely the logical epicenter of this topic, a boost leak clearly and fairly explains the lack of results.
my .2c
My point here is that this is in my opinion a strategy of oportunism from Vishnu. There are many things and factors here that throws the logical off board.
Known aftermarket parts making less power? a MBC and a CAI making less power? honestly , when have you heard that you put these two parts and your car runs slower?
There is no doubt here guys, Al has the tools and the knowledge to make power from your car, that is what he does best. If the customer's car has mechanical issues it will hinder the final results.
I have read many, mnay, many topics in which Al actually had fixed customer leaks before tuning the cars and that is something not mentioned here.
Do you guys think Al is incompetent? Cmon guys, he knows the Evos very well and he had helped many people in the past with boost leaks.
I strongly believe that the boost leak theory is mostlikely the logical epicenter of this topic, a boost leak clearly and fairly explains the lack of results.
my .2c
Originally Posted by taenaive
The answer for that one is that most of Al's excuses has been alway the boost leak when his flash failed. Also, I guess you only understood boost leak part and nothing else discussed here. I highly doubt this was just a boost leak according to the data showed here.
Since I wasn't there for the road tune nor for the after tune dyno I can't in any way accuse no one here, I can only bring facts and hints.
For the people that are reading this post and are planning on getting mods, guys the Buschur UICP works fine, the HKS RS intake is one of the best intakes in the market and the Forged MBC is also indeed one of the best MBC right now so disregard this Dyno finding because it does not reflect the real performance conditions.
The mods I mentioned make power for sure.