Case Study: Road "Tuning" vs Dyno Tuning (Merged)
Here's my obligatory response to this thread. I did make one comment in the other one, but after reading this one, I just have 2 things to say:
1) Obviously, something was wrong with that car when it showed up at Gruppe-S and again at Vishnu (same problem, I assume, since the dyno results were identical). The problem is we don't know what was wrong. We don't know if it was Al's road tune, the Buschur parts, the HKS intake, or something else. The problem I have with the whole situation is the intention is to show that road tunes AS A WHOLE and Buschur parts AS A WHOLE are poor products that should not be bought in lieu of Vishnu products (tuning and parts). I fully respect Vishnu's tuning AND Vishnu's approach to modding (notice my stock intake, fmic, and ic piping), so what bothers me is that this information would be posted in such a manner as to attempt to fully discredit both Dynoflash and Buschur Racing. That is what it looks like to the random observer - no, not me, but regular Evo newbies who know nothing about either camp (go look at the locked thread for an example of this).
2) We all know that Al's road tunes work and that Buschur's staged parts work. There is no question. For every example you "find" of these things not working well, you can find 10, 20, maybe 50 examples of where they DO work very well. As for me, as most people already know, and as you can see in my sig, I ran 12.26 on 93oct with my Dynoflash - that's with only a TBE, MBC, BOV, fuel pump. I then ran 12.000 on race gas. I think that shows my Dynoflash tune is pretty good, wouldn't you say? I didn't have any Buschur parts nor an intake, but there are countless Evos out there running wonderfully fast with his parts.
1) Obviously, something was wrong with that car when it showed up at Gruppe-S and again at Vishnu (same problem, I assume, since the dyno results were identical). The problem is we don't know what was wrong. We don't know if it was Al's road tune, the Buschur parts, the HKS intake, or something else. The problem I have with the whole situation is the intention is to show that road tunes AS A WHOLE and Buschur parts AS A WHOLE are poor products that should not be bought in lieu of Vishnu products (tuning and parts). I fully respect Vishnu's tuning AND Vishnu's approach to modding (notice my stock intake, fmic, and ic piping), so what bothers me is that this information would be posted in such a manner as to attempt to fully discredit both Dynoflash and Buschur Racing. That is what it looks like to the random observer - no, not me, but regular Evo newbies who know nothing about either camp (go look at the locked thread for an example of this).
2) We all know that Al's road tunes work and that Buschur's staged parts work. There is no question. For every example you "find" of these things not working well, you can find 10, 20, maybe 50 examples of where they DO work very well. As for me, as most people already know, and as you can see in my sig, I ran 12.26 on 93oct with my Dynoflash - that's with only a TBE, MBC, BOV, fuel pump. I then ran 12.000 on race gas. I think that shows my Dynoflash tune is pretty good, wouldn't you say? I didn't have any Buschur parts nor an intake, but there are countless Evos out there running wonderfully fast with his parts.
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
As for me, as most people already know, and as you can see in my sig, I ran 12.26 on 93oct with my Dynoflash - that's with only a TBE, MBC, BOV, fuel pump. I then ran 12.000 on race gas.
Information is good.
(I am not bashing anyone here)
Originally Posted by razorlab
To be ultra fair, please post the times and trapspeeds you also achieved with just your SAFC before you got a dynoflash.
Information is good.
(I am not bashing anyone here)
Information is good.
(I am not bashing anyone here)
294whp/269wtq
12.52@108.5 93oct
12.01@111.7 110oct
After flash - no other changes:
No dyno yet
12.26@110.0 93oct (SAFC set to 0)
12.00@113.7 110oct (SAFC in use)
I got the flash mainly to remove the rev limiter in 4th on the 6spd, since that was holding me up at the end of the track (e.g. 111.7mph bouncing off rev limiter), and because of my weak torque, which occurs on an SAFC without injectors. The flash gave me all that torque back immediately but with only minor increases in peak WHP i'm guessing. I am dyno'ing again next week with the custom flash. There was no change on the race gas tune, because I just had a pump gas tune, and the SAFC isn't limited as much in the timing dept when on race gas.
Last edited by Warrtalon; Jan 5, 2006 at 05:03 PM.
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
Here's my obligatory response to this thread. I did make one comment in the other one, but after reading this one, I just have 2 things to say:
1) Obviously, something was wrong with that car when it showed up at Gruppe-S and again at Vishnu (same problem, I assume, since the dyno results were identical). The problem is we don't know what was wrong. We don't know if it was Al's road tune, the Buschur parts, the HKS intake, or something else. The problem I have with the whole situation is the intention is to show that road tunes AS A WHOLE and Buschur parts AS A WHOLE are poor products that should not be bought in lieu of Vishnu products (tuning and parts). I fully respect Vishnu's tuning AND Vishnu's approach to modding (notice my stock intake, fmic, and ic piping), so what bothers me is that this information would be posted in such a manner as to attempt to fully discredit both Dynoflash and Buschur Racing. That is what it looks like to the random observer - no, not me, but regular Evo newbies who know nothing about either camp (go look at the locked thread for an example of this).
2) We all know that Al's road tunes work and that Buschur's staged parts work. There is no question. For every example you "find" of these things not working well, you can find 10, 20, maybe 50 examples of where they DO work very well. As for me, as most people already know, and as you can see in my sig, I ran 12.26 on 93oct with my Dynoflash - that's with only a TBE, MBC, BOV, fuel pump. I then ran 12.000 on race gas. I think that shows my Dynoflash tune is pretty good, wouldn't you say? I didn't have any Buschur parts nor an intake, but there are countless Evos out there running wonderfully fast with his parts.
1) Obviously, something was wrong with that car when it showed up at Gruppe-S and again at Vishnu (same problem, I assume, since the dyno results were identical). The problem is we don't know what was wrong. We don't know if it was Al's road tune, the Buschur parts, the HKS intake, or something else. The problem I have with the whole situation is the intention is to show that road tunes AS A WHOLE and Buschur parts AS A WHOLE are poor products that should not be bought in lieu of Vishnu products (tuning and parts). I fully respect Vishnu's tuning AND Vishnu's approach to modding (notice my stock intake, fmic, and ic piping), so what bothers me is that this information would be posted in such a manner as to attempt to fully discredit both Dynoflash and Buschur Racing. That is what it looks like to the random observer - no, not me, but regular Evo newbies who know nothing about either camp (go look at the locked thread for an example of this).
2) We all know that Al's road tunes work and that Buschur's staged parts work. There is no question. For every example you "find" of these things not working well, you can find 10, 20, maybe 50 examples of where they DO work very well. As for me, as most people already know, and as you can see in my sig, I ran 12.26 on 93oct with my Dynoflash - that's with only a TBE, MBC, BOV, fuel pump. I then ran 12.000 on race gas. I think that shows my Dynoflash tune is pretty good, wouldn't you say? I didn't have any Buschur parts nor an intake, but there are countless Evos out there running wonderfully fast with his parts.
1. I never saw any mention of Buschur or Dynoflash, I just saw Al get super pissed and fly off the handle, then claim it was not parts or tunning, yes it could be a car issue, no there is no proof cause, hey imagine that no dyno sheet either.
Buschur makes some ok stuff and so does Vishnu, do I recommend either, not really, Vishnu is to expensive and Buschur is good price but not the best, I remeber when Sutton came by after putting on his Buschur TBE and is didn't fit well or sound very good, but it did make good power for the money, but I wouldn't recommend it.
2. Yes road tunes and buschar parts do work, base flashes make power to, do they make the most power, Nope. As for you using Dynoflash and Buschur I'll state again it isn't about it making power, does it make the best power? I don't think so, esp if you have a mail in flash. Also your car is built with one purpose in mind and that is nice 1/4 times on a budget, perfect for Buschur parts and mail-in flashes.
-James
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
Here's my obligatory response to this thread. I did make one comment in the other one, but after reading this one, I just have 2 things to say:
1) Obviously, something was wrong with that car when it showed up at Gruppe-S and again at Vishnu (same problem, I assume, since the dyno results were identical). The problem is we don't know what was wrong. We don't know if it was Al's road tune, the Buschur parts, the HKS intake, or something else. The problem I have with the whole situation is the intention is to show that road tunes AS A WHOLE and Buschur parts AS A WHOLE are poor products that should not be bought in lieu of Vishnu products (tuning and parts). I fully respect Vishnu's tuning AND Vishnu's approach to modding (notice my stock intake, fmic, and ic piping), so what bothers me is that this information would be posted in such a manner as to attempt to fully discredit both Dynoflash and Buschur Racing. That is what it looks like to the random observer - no, not me, but regular Evo newbies who know nothing about either camp (go look at the locked thread for an example of this).
2) We all know that Al's road tunes work and that Buschur's staged parts work. There is no question. For every example you "find" of these things not working well, you can find 10, 20, maybe 50 examples of where they DO work very well. As for me, as most people already know, and as you can see in my sig, I ran 12.26 on 93oct with my Dynoflash - that's with only a TBE, MBC, BOV, fuel pump. I then ran 12.000 on race gas. I think that shows my Dynoflash tune is pretty good, wouldn't you say? I didn't have any Buschur parts nor an intake, but there are countless Evos out there running wonderfully fast with his parts.
1) Obviously, something was wrong with that car when it showed up at Gruppe-S and again at Vishnu (same problem, I assume, since the dyno results were identical). The problem is we don't know what was wrong. We don't know if it was Al's road tune, the Buschur parts, the HKS intake, or something else. The problem I have with the whole situation is the intention is to show that road tunes AS A WHOLE and Buschur parts AS A WHOLE are poor products that should not be bought in lieu of Vishnu products (tuning and parts). I fully respect Vishnu's tuning AND Vishnu's approach to modding (notice my stock intake, fmic, and ic piping), so what bothers me is that this information would be posted in such a manner as to attempt to fully discredit both Dynoflash and Buschur Racing. That is what it looks like to the random observer - no, not me, but regular Evo newbies who know nothing about either camp (go look at the locked thread for an example of this).
2) We all know that Al's road tunes work and that Buschur's staged parts work. There is no question. For every example you "find" of these things not working well, you can find 10, 20, maybe 50 examples of where they DO work very well. As for me, as most people already know, and as you can see in my sig, I ran 12.26 on 93oct with my Dynoflash - that's with only a TBE, MBC, BOV, fuel pump. I then ran 12.000 on race gas. I think that shows my Dynoflash tune is pretty good, wouldn't you say? I didn't have any Buschur parts nor an intake, but there are countless Evos out there running wonderfully fast with his parts.
Originally Posted by 2literturbos
1. I never saw any mention of Buschur or Dynoflash, I just saw Al get super pissed and fly off the handle, then claim it was not parts or tunning, yes it could be a car issue, no there is no proof cause, hey imagine that no dyno sheet either.
Buschur makes some ok stuff and so does Vishnu, do I recommend either, not really, Vishnu is to expensive and Buschur is good price but not the best, I remeber when Sutton came by after putting on his Buschur TBE and is didn't fit well or sound very good, but it did make good power for the money, but I wouldn't recommend it.
2. Yes road tunes and buschar parts do work, base flashes make power to, do they make the most power, Nope. As for you using Dynoflash and Buschur I'll state again it isn't about it making power, does it make the best power? I don't think so, esp if you have a mail in flash. Also your car is built with one purpose in mind and that is nice 1/4 times on a budget, perfect for Buschur parts and mail-in flashes.
-James
Buschur makes some ok stuff and so does Vishnu, do I recommend either, not really, Vishnu is to expensive and Buschur is good price but not the best, I remeber when Sutton came by after putting on his Buschur TBE and is didn't fit well or sound very good, but it did make good power for the money, but I wouldn't recommend it.
2. Yes road tunes and buschar parts do work, base flashes make power to, do they make the most power, Nope. As for you using Dynoflash and Buschur I'll state again it isn't about it making power, does it make the best power? I don't think so, esp if you have a mail in flash. Also your car is built with one purpose in mind and that is nice 1/4 times on a budget, perfect for Buschur parts and mail-in flashes.
-James
2) My car was not built for the 1/4-mile. It was built for reliable, everyday power for as little money spent as possible. You call it "on a budget," but my budget is not limited by money - only by the fact that I don't NEED to spend a lot to have a well-built car that goes very fast. I spent more time autocrossing and road racing than I did drag racing. IT's just that the drag strip shows measurable/comparable numbers that cannot be manipulated like a dyno.
Anyway, as it pertains to the thread itself, I just don't want people to take this information and use it as some sort of ammo. The best thing that Shiv could have done would have been to troubleshoot the car to find out the problem first. I think Shiv knows and everyone knows that no Dynoflash tune (no, not even a road tune) should ever have a -40 differential from WHP to WTQ. Hell, my SAFC-tuned Evo never had more than a -25 differential, and that's expected due to the factory lean/low timing condition at peak torque. That doesn't exist with a Dynoflash (or any flash), so something HAD to be wrong here, and it wasn't the UICP or 1G BOV...
Last edited by Warrtalon; Jan 5, 2006 at 05:12 PM.
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Originally Posted by Warrtalon
The best thing that Shiv could have done would have been to troubleshoot the car to find out the problem first. I think Shiv knows and everyone knows that no Dynoflash tune (no, not even a road tune) should ever have a -40 differential from WHP to WTQ.
I have datalogs of the road tune. If Al gives me permission, I can post those. I think that will draw some light as to why it performed the way it did.
Regards,
shiv
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
There was nothing to troubleshoot Warrtalon. Seriously dude.. what part of that comment don't you understand? The car was examined at both Gruppe-S and our shop. There was NOTHING mechanically wrong with it. Zero. Nada. Please don't believe what you want to believe. Look at the facts.
I have datalogs of the road tune. If Al gives me permission, I can post those. I think that will draw some light as to why it performed the way it did.
Regards,
shiv
I have datalogs of the road tune. If Al gives me permission, I can post those. I think that will draw some light as to why it performed the way it did.
Regards,
shiv
If you think the reasoning is in the datalogs, then we need to see them for the sake of analysis and comparison. Are they the ones that Al himself posted or something else?
Originally Posted by Jim_Patterson
My car was tuned by Shiv, before i bought the car, I had the xede removed prior to purchasing it and will be dynoing the car in late Feb with a dynobaseflash. I will post results, good or bad.
Originally Posted by Dustin@Vishnu
The point is Kevin, one cannot draw a dyno graph in their head just by feeling a 3rd gear pull. And since the dyno chart cannot be looked at graphically, its hard to figure out EXACTLY where improvements can be made. I would imagine that this is why Al uses his Gtech pro thingy mcjigger. However the problem with those types of devices is that they cannot account for bumps or dips in the road, or wind speed changes. So when you see dips in the graph you have to ask yourself, was that really a knock event? Did I really pick up power here, or was that just a bump where the car was unloaded for a sec? With tuning, one is looking for trends, and trends are impossible to spot when there is no constant load held...I don't care who you are.
Originally Posted by Warrtalon
I don't see how there was nothing to troubleshoot. You removed the intake, UICP, and BOV, right? That's a form of troubleshooting. You retuned it from scratch, right? That also is troubleshooting. The whole point here is that you took a Dynoflashed/Buschur car that wasn't running well...troubleshot it...and got it running much better. That's the whole point of this as I see it. My issue is that no troubleshooting was done to find out what was causing this before removing all the parts and retuning with a different program. So, yes, there was MUCH to troubleshoot, because that's what you did, and it worked. We just don't know what the source of the problem was now.
If you think the reasoning is in the datalogs, then we need to see them for the sake of analysis and comparison. Are they the ones that Al himself posted or something else?
If you think the reasoning is in the datalogs, then we need to see them for the sake of analysis and comparison. Are they the ones that Al himself posted or something else?
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Just in case it was lost somewhere in the translation, the parts were removed at the request of the owner of the car. There was no reason for me to tune it. Although I would have no such problem doing so. I've done it before. In the end, the customer just wanted a smooth-running, quiet car that makes the power that it should.
-shiv
-shiv
What Shiv states about not being a boost leak is absolutely correct. I know this because I just went through this exercise. I started tuning my car just a couple weeks ago when I installed my SMART system. I had a good baseline and everything was working great. Then all of a sudden I was losing 1-2psi of boost. I thought maybe the weather was the culprit, but after doing some datalogging I was running a lot richer and I was hitting cells in my MAF table that I usually don't hit. My boost would fluctuate 1-2psi all over the RPM range. So I started looking at my all my hoses and found that my hose to my Aquamist MAP sensor had disconnected. Connected it back up and everything was back to normal.
I wish I still had some of my GTech runs or I would post the 10-20whp swing that would happen on back to back runs. Also, the graphs above shows a constant boost curve and mine was bouncing 1-2psi- up and down.
I wish I still had some of my GTech runs or I would post the 10-20whp swing that would happen on back to back runs. Also, the graphs above shows a constant boost curve and mine was bouncing 1-2psi- up and down.
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Just in case it was lost somewhere in the translation, the parts were removed at the request of the owner of the car. There was no reason for me to tune it. Although I would have no such problem doing so. I've done it before. In the end, the customer just wanted a smooth-running, quiet car that makes the power that it should.
However, such an instance does make it quite convenient in that you are able to switch everything out, retune, and show the difference without providing (or ever knowing) the actual cause of all the problems. No one will ever know now, so the point then becomes that you want to discredit Dynoflash/Buschur to current and potential customers (e.g. Gaulrich) without yourself knowing what the original issue was. This is my only beef.
