Last time I checked... 11's on pump without alchy isn't slow...

I have $2800 in power mods to my car...

Cams, Gears, Exhaust, Hotside, BOV, Xede....

I don't feel I overspent for my results....

I also don't think Buschur's parts are low quality. I have worked on a few cars with Dave's parts and I think they look good, but if I can run with cars that have intakes, FMICs, and piping.... why should I get them?

Personally, I was very thankful for the comparison Dave did recently of various manifolds and the FMIC test as well, I respect the guy even though I don't always see eye to eye with him.

- Steve

 

Desided not to be an E-fighter.

 

I peronally have bought parts from Bushur/Vishnu/AMS/Dyno4mance and RMR and have nothing bad to say about ANY! I know alot of people who said they LOVE the Dynoflash set-up! When I read the thread about "street-tune vs Dyno-tune" I knew who the "street-tune" was meant to be a stab at, I know Al does it that way now, and dont know who else does. I knew when I opened the thread, it would be a "Me vs You" dispute. I Don't bad mouth anyone, or say I am better than you, and I dont think this was nice to say.

Everyone has their tuner shops and likes and dis-likes, and that goes with loyalty. Some shops are out there countless hours in the shop, making a better product for us, and I personally commend them for that!

I think Al defended himself, as he knew this was towards him, as I did,(and many other did also) before I opened the thread.

I hope this gum gets the bad taste out of my mouth! lets quitthe*****in and carry on. just my 2c!

 

Lets look at one thing here, and nothing else, the VERY FIRST DYNO PLOT.



That's what needs to be addressed. Regardless of anything else.....

Now Al & Dave, if the car had a boost leak, would it cause this kind of power loss in the midrange? I honestly don't know, I've never dynoed a car with a boost leak before. And as a follow-on question to this. Would a car that is boosting 17lbs with a leak make that much less power than the same car at the same boost, without a leak? (the reason being the turbo has to work harder with a leak to achieve the same boost level increasing intake temps and killing power)

Can we please ignore all the hating and flaming prior to this and just answer that question objectively for me? Please?

- Steve

 

Is it just me or does the very first dyno graph show that the car actually boosted higher the majority of the pull before it was touched/fixed/whatever you wanna call it and it made less usable/enjoyable power? How do you explain that? If the car was originally tuned at a higher boost level and then lost a few maybe 3-4 psi because of leak but still maintained a higher boost level than the after vishnu tune, it would make that much less hp and tq even with more psi? Could this be due to the fact that the car wasnt operating at the original target boost range like DB said throwing off the tune? Seems kind of wierd but i'm no tuner and notice that those are all questions as i am looking for answers. And I'm refering to the very first dyno graph. I'm also noticing that a lot of direct questions are being danced around and are not being aswered. And whats up with all the name calling?

 

Now thats what i'm talking about. Saw this after i posted above. CAN SOMEONE CHIME IN PLEASE? Thank you!

 

Cars with boost leaks always make less power than cars that are holding good boost

There are several resaons for this

#1 The car with the boost leak must close the wastgate actuator tighter to generate the same boost level - thus creating more back pressure

#2 The car with a boost leak has metered air exacaping out of the turbo system which means injector duty is being added for air that is not there - -= ergo rich

#3 The car with a boost leak will not run in the proper mapping cells that it was tuned to run in and the tune is thrown off

Simply put - a Stage II car falling to 16 psi has a fairly significant boost leak and is not running properly

Only a total jerk off like Shiv would stoop to the level of trying to draw a tuning comparision under such circumstances

Furthermore, the bottom line is that with his moon dyno all the settings and corrections can be altered and adjusted to effect the results of any pull.

I was not there to observe the honestly and accuracy of the dyno testing.

The only thing I have heard about Shiv's dyno veracity is what was posted by the Preseident of Sparco USA who posted that Shiv had intentionally manipulated his air temp sensor input by placing the intake temp probe near the exhuast in an attampt to gain a hugely high ambeint temp reading of 160 plus degrees which adds heaps of power to the car.

It remains pure conjecture as to how much power would have of could have been picked up by correcting the boost leak as obviosuly no one at Vishnu was trying to help this customer resolve his problem - Shiv was trying to manipulate the situation as a marketing ploy to show how great his tuning and ideas are

I can not say I blame him - becuase evetrytime I get a car in here with an Exede on it I flat out tell the customers that its time to remove the exede and get a good reflash. The reality is that I have taken so many exede's off of customer's cars that I have lost count and there is no need to chronicle it with a giant thread every time. After, the customer from the "Tuner Transformation" show basically gave me his Exede he was so haoppy to be rid of it in Chicago I kind of lost interest in playing dyno tester with those devices.

It seems that even shiv himself has now seen the light with his recent promotion of good old reflash technology - GOOD WORK SHIV !


I hear that Shiv has broken out a fresh lab coat for his next scientific comparsion where in he will attampt to compare a Dyno Flash tuned evo with BR stage 4 minus one spark plug vs a Vishnu Stage 1A+++-+- beta . This test should be most useful.

 

Alright. Good observation on the boost. I looked at the end results only. BUT, if the car was tuned for 21 psi as Al said it was and then the car either had a leak OR the boost got turned down, then this would throw the tune off by a very large margin. The car would not run the correct AFR's and it would also not be running where the timing was optimized either.

Now, if you also look at those sheets the last run from Al's base tune was run #4. The "first" run that Shiv did was run #8. Hmmmm. That's 4 dyno pulls in between. Shiv is a good enough tuner, and he said he tuned it, to gain that much power in the mid range from a tune that was off from being out of it's prior tuned range.

That's my opinion.

BTW, I guess from this post a customer just called here that has an Exede on his car that was tuned by Shiv. He wants to come in and do some dyno runs and then have Al do a custom flash on his car. Decide for himself which is best. I am really looking forward to this!

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

Brandy,

All things being equal, wouldn't a car with a boost leak run at the same AFR or richer in the high end? Something else going on here.

 

I will be sure to shine my Prada shoes for that ocassion. Glad to hear that this testing has generated some more business already for my services - thanks Shiv

 

Seriously though - I am being serious - Shiv - did you remember to pull the handbreak on that first dyno pull or was the car really making 45 less TQ than WHP???

Guys - you all have seen hundreds of dyno sheets posted of my tunes by myself , my customers and other shops

When have my tunes ever had such weat TQ in comparsion to whp?

There was something really wrong going on with that car

Its all a shame for the poor customer - the more I think about taking off HKS RS Inatake and Buschur Parts to re-install the stock air box - it kind of has a perverse ring to it all. Its kind of like trying to put the clothes back on a penthouse pet.

 

You gentlemen will have to excuse me now as I must head out to go earn a living.

 

when I had my car road tune all that was done is they hooked up a o2 sensor to the muffler. Took what mods I had, changed things accordingly in the computer. Made a run down the road, monitored stuff. I had to change the spring in my forge mbc and dropped the ball out of it. Finally found it after about 20-30 mins of looking. made another run down the road back to the garage that held the tune and that was it . Maybe about an hour give or take total with me dropping the ball. It feels like my car runs better but, no dyno result. I thought there would be more to it . I mean we adjusted boost a couple times and he punched in some stuff on the laptop. It seemed like an easy $300. I know there is more to it than I saw (prior testing, liescencing, travel) but it still seemed like a lot for a little time. I am happy with the tune but I would like to see it on a dyno maybe next trip to ATL.

 

Yep, a boost leak would cause a massive enrichment up top (where the ECU would be fueling for a MAF reading that isn't actually being consumed by the engine). In other words, there is no boost leak. Never was as evident by the results the car made on Gruppe-S's dyno a couple week backs.

Shiv

 

This is really funny. The car with Al's set-up was indeed making 21psi of boost. The recorded boost taper is perfectly normal. Especially when you are reading boost from the BOV signal line and have 15' of hose between the source and the MAP sensor built into the dyno.


I'll go head and post all of Al's first runs (and the missing runs today). You'll find that I was being fair.

BTW, I guess from this post a customer just called here that has an Exede on his car that was tuned by Shiv. He wants to come in and do some dyno runs and then have Al do a custom flash on his car. Decide for himself which is best. I am really looking forward to this!
[/QUOTE]
Was it a car that I tuned myself? If so, I look forward to the results

Back to Al:
On the log you posted, where exactly is the RPM data?

-shiv