I will say they are both great tuners, Shiv seems to be a bit more of a techie then Al is but they both product great results. I sure wish there would be some sort of a turner shootout and see who really does know the evo's the best.

 

The only way to settle this is as follows :

Have the car drive in to an independant dyno - say group s or San rafieal - take a dyno of how it drives in off the road with the shiv tune - log all data - this way we can see how much timing the ecu is pulling with that huge boost on 91 octane pump gas and how realistic the tune is for street driving - we dyno it just as it was tuned on the dyno

Then re-install the BR Stage II parts and check for boost leaks carefully go out and do another road tune and take it back to the dyno an re-dyno at same boost level as in my street logs

This will prove that the previous tune and parts were working well and making great power and the problem was related to a boost leak only

I am willing to fly all the way out there to re-install the BR parts and my tune at my expenese

After the experiement we can re-install the stock parts and Shiv's tune if the customer likes

If the BR equiped and DF tuned IX does not beat the Shiv power I will wear prada shoes for a year

If the BR car wins - Shiv has to wear black BR t shirts for a year no more button down oxfords - an appologize for being unprofessional with all these attacks on a fellow tuner's work

 

How can you practice a margin of safety if you are trying to take the car to the edge to prove that I can produce one more pony here or two more ponies there than you can. I dont agree with these tune-offs because they are pointless. People on both sides (Vishnu or Dynoflash) or all sides (AMS-PD-BR-TT-Works) all have there loyal followers and certainly a few others who feel they could have gotten better performance elsewhere.

But as far as the road tuning thing goes, i dont like it and dont care about it or anything even if its effective. I wanna have my car in a shop on a dyno in a controlled environment getting the job done right, not simi-right on the street with ok results.

 

I'd have to fly to California for this one!

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

NoTec,

I am not here to argue. Think about what you are saying though, don't take offense to this but please read what I have to say.

I have tuned A LOT of cars on the street. I have then loaded them on the dyno to see what they would do. IF I am trying to make as much power as I can on the street and load it on the dyno the power will be at its max when I dyno it.

Think of it this way. Any good tuner knows the limits of what he can do. You have limits on AFR's, timing, knock count etc. Knowing these limits if you are logging them on the road (which is the real world) you know how far you can take the car safely on the tune. In other words if you are tuning for 11.5:1 AFR as a safe limit and a knock count of 1 volt. The tune is going to be dead on.

Now, with all the controversy over this dyno is good and this dyno is bad and this dyno operator is honest and this one isn't, wouldn't you rather trust the road as a steady variable, that's where you are going to be driving the car anyway, right? Now the only variable is the guy tuning the car and if you trust him and he takes pride in his work he is going to tune the car as far as he can safely.

This car should then be able to be put onto a dyno and make as much power as it can safely.

Here lies the problem.......if you have a dyno that DOES NOT simulate the road very closely you will load this car onto the dyno and monitor it. The AFR's will change if the dyno isn't loading it correctly. Now you have this guy that is tuning the car saying, "Wow, the guy that tuned your car is an idiot. Road tuning sucks. Look at your AFR's they are too lean/too rich, you really got screwed." The power, if the AFR's were way too rich, could be made better at this point, ON THE DYNO. Problem is now this new tuner has leaned out the AFR for the dyno and when you hit the road again you now have an overly lean fuel mixture. If this dyno doesn't load the car properly there is also a chance you can run more ignition timing on the dyno too with less knock, which would also make more power ON THE DYNO.

I hope anyone with any type of common sense can READ what I am trying to explain and see that in reality the road/track is the best place to get an accurate tune.

IT IS NOT THE SAFEST PLACE OR MOST CONVENIENT PLACE but it is overall the most accurate.

As a side note there are many dyno's that do load the car extremely close to how they run on the street.

We have done many-many tests here to check AFR's and knock levels against our dyno from the street and back to the dyno. The AFR's will stay within .3 and the knock levels stay consistent. The day we did the EVO9 comparison from Tym's Dynojet to our MD AWD dyno Tym brought a datalog sheet of the AFR's from the road with him. We then compared what he had on the road to what I had on the dyno. He was very surprised to see how very close they were.

Have a great day.

David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com

 

I agree 100% with what David has asserted here.

In addition I find that road tuning allows you to load the car up hills and over varying terrain you will encounter in normal road operation to determine if the tuning parameters are set in such a manner as to avoid knock activity in all phases of operation.

IMHO - far more important than who can make peak whp claims on a dyno is who can deliver a car which avoids detonation on 91 octane fuel to the greatest extent while realizing the expected range of whp.

For me Dynos are great tools for over all base map developmenmt and testing tuning concepts

Road tuning is great to test a previously developed base map out and fine tune it to work safely on a particular car.

While many customers seem to fixate on dyno numbers - saftey and margin of saftey are the primary critera which judge a good street tune - especially on 91 octane

NOTE * - Despite my highly conservative tuning methods - my cars which have been dynoed at the previous Group S dyno days all fared very well in power delivery on a dyno. Further - they all fared very well at race tracks.

FINALLY - Vishnu attack squad - please realize - I have prob dyno tuned more Evo 8's than any one is the USA. I dyno every day here at my home dyno shop - Pruven Perfromance and one a month at Buschur Racing. I have hundreds of hours of time on dynos. If not thousands. I can tune a car - whether it is my race car or a street driven stock evo 8 just as well on the street as on a dyno - in fact the street tune is without a doubt more accurate for the reasons explained by Mr. Buschur

IN ALL CASES - once the car is tuned - if the car develops a boost leak and is run at several psi below hos it was tuned it will THROW OFF THE TUNE - it could make more or less power but it is not how the car was tuned

 

Al, you REALLY need to straighten out your story for us, your posts have conflicted each other a number of times on this thread and I'm getting tired of it.

So the boost on your tune being 3psi low is what caused the loss in power, according to you.

And, according to this dyno chart...


Shiv's tune was only 2-2.5psi higher than your tune that was 3psi low, yet somehow his tune is "MASSIVE BOOST". Give me a break....

I said earlier I was done with this thread, and I was, but people just need to realize what you're saying. And quite frankly, right now even I am confused as what you're saying.

Is Shiv psi more than Al psi, or more knock prone? No, it's not...

Or are you just to hard headed to admit that maybe, just maybe you didn't do the best job on this one car? Appologise for it, and walk away...

Yes, it is unfortunate that the one tuner you absolutely can't stand with every fiber of your body called you on it, but you know what? We're all human, we all make mistakes, and you know what? It's one car!!!!

I've seen your work over here in NJ, that 05 that put 378 to the wheels on pump, thats a good friend of mine, you tuned his car, I think the car runs awesome, and I'd never knock your work.

But on the same token Al, I would never pay for your services. Simply because you can't answer simple technical questions from members of this board, you dodge the truth, and that, is the most unprofessional behavior of all.

- Steve

 

So Shiv you up for this?

 

I got road tunned by AL last month.was'nt really impressed I knew my car could make more power.So this weekend I had Precision, ECUTEK my car .It made so much more power.The power delivery was awesome.I don't have a scanner to post up the dyno graph,but Mitch at VIVID saw the results.All I can say is stay away from the Road Tune....

Thanks Nick-Nick#2 Thanks for the great tune . made 308.89hp 316.57 trq. on mustang dyno . Made more than AL'S road tune which was 286.71 hp 282.87 trq. . Also Thanks Mitch for hookin it up.

 

Davia and AL,

Read both of your posts twice and fully understand what you are saying. It is still my personal preference to have my car tuned in a shop on a dyno. I could also care less about max hp as there is less reguard for or margin of safety. Like I stated before, either of these tuners will get my business but as long as it is done on a dyno.

 

How much was the road tune and how much was the ECUtek?

 

If the car was originally tuned to run at 22-23 psi in the mid range and then taper to 18-19 at redline but at shiv's shop it was developing 19-20 and 15-16 respectively, then because the car wasnt operating within the boost range it was tuned for, it would and should make less HP and TQ than shivs tune.

 

Wow, this is the most BS I have ever read on these forums. (Al's post)

Al, you have a magical way with words. Once again you have been able to turn something around and try to make it come out in your favor. THERE WAS NO BOOST LEAK, get over it.

And as far as road tuning and Dyno tuning go, road tuning is a JOKE. I don’t care how many loggers and gadgets you have. A dyno has the ability to TELL the tuner what his changes have made. While you may aim for a certain AFR, how do you know its going to work well for that particular car? How do you know the timing you removed helped the car? While the butt dyno may feel like it has alot of power, it doesn’t.

A car on the dyno is going to be in harsher conditions than if it were on the road. It is going to have back-to-back dyno pulls heating the engine up, it has very little air flow depending on the dyno fans used to cool the engine. Its going to be hotter in the shop than outside the majority of the time. It will be more knock prone on the dyno than if it were on the street. Did you see any knock events on the Dyno sheet? No. Road tuning is a joke for poor mans tune.

The fact is, a DynoDynamics Dyno can simulate real world load conditions of the road.

 

Not that this thread was ever really about the merits of road tuning versus dyno tuning ... but here is my take on that subject:

The dyno provides an environment where the iterative tuning process can be completed in a more rapid and controlled fashion ... pull on the dyno, see immediate results, reflash, and pull ... rinse and repeat. No need to go out on the road, drive around (potentially dangerously), then drive back to 'home base' and reflash and go out again.

It just seems like this process makes more efficient use of time when time is often a limitation (and expense!).

Also, it just seems to me that the dyno results are a bit more trustworthy than a g-tech in terms of knowing exactly what makes power, for reasons previously stated.

However, the road I believe is invaluable as the dyno is only a 'simulation' of loading that occurs on the road. One can only be sure of how the tune is going to react on the road.

So both have important value and the ideal tune I believe would involve both ... tuning on the dyno to maximize the power safely in a controlled iterative fashion ... and then fine tuning on the road where the real world loads are present.

Of course none of that really has anything to do with this thread

 

I agree with you 99%. The 1% part is the most BS on this forums part in your first line. Whats one mans BS/trash is another mans treasure. Treasure=information. The more info I get on this road-tune stuff, the more i dont like it. I'm finding out that crucial varaibles that are very important can be controlled but not totally controlled like on a dyno.