Case Study: Road "Tuning" vs Dyno Tuning (Merged)
Originally Posted by ibanez_926
After comparing VIII to IX dyno numbers from both tuners.
It appears to me that Shiv makes more power in the lower rpm's but the tq falls off at the higher rpms like the VIII did
Al seems to make the same low rpm power but his tq curve holds much flatter
Both would be a result of different stratagies of mivec tuning correct?
OFF Topic - Al used to be a lawyer?
It appears to me that Shiv makes more power in the lower rpm's but the tq falls off at the higher rpms like the VIII did
Al seems to make the same low rpm power but his tq curve holds much flatter
Both would be a result of different stratagies of mivec tuning correct?
OFF Topic - Al used to be a lawyer?
Originally Posted by NoTec
Yes, yes, and yes. And Al was a lawyer back in the day. I think that with a good dyno tune session from either of these tuners, any VIII or IX from the 2 will perform similarly on the road. But I also believe that road tunes should be left up to those who race on a pro level on tracks period. arent dyno pulls done in 3rd and 4th gear up to redline? Are you telling me that road tunes are done the same way on the road? Impossible. I would think they are done in 2nd gear. There are just too many safty factors that distract the tuner from total control of the situation at hand. And thats tuning. I want his 100% focus in my 30+ grand car. He can give me his 100% on a dyno.
So, yes, the speeds are dangerous.
- Steve
Originally Posted by SuperHatch
Actually, on the road 3rd gear is used, second gear is dispatched too quickly to log meaningful data....
So, yes, the speeds are dangerous.
- Steve
So, yes, the speeds are dangerous.
- Steve
Originally Posted by Mr. Evo IX
Right, none of us are going to tune our car for every location and every street we are going to drive down but this is the Road vs Dyno topic. I drive my car on the street every day. I've never driven my car on a Dyno. I realize that a dyno is a great tool for measuring power produced in a certain circumstance but it's not the be-all-end-all measurement tool. If the best of the best in the world dont rely 100% on dyno results for their tuning then maybe those that believe the dyno is the ONLY way for accurate results should reconsider their rigid opinions.
Regardless of how good a tune one thinks he can get from the "road tuning" tuners, it's safety, legality and ultimately it's effectiveness remain highly debatable.
I've had my cars "road tuned" and dyno tuned by several very well known tuners in these forums. The first "road tune" was done by Al and the results were very inconclusive. For one thing, I neglected to get a a baseline dyno run before and after and secondly, when boost solutions tuner got in the car as tuned by Al, he said "there is something wrong with this tune"... Of course, this is nothing but hearsay, thusly inadmissible in a good discussion. Still, it's something to think about...
Later, my car was "road tuned" innumerable times by other tuners with pretty lame results. These results were verified by subsequent dyno tests... Then, the same car was dyno tuned on a DD dyno and the results were nothing short of spectacular. Specially in light of the previous results of the "road tunes". Now, these last statements can be backed by other people's witnessing plus by dyno charts of before and after, etc.
There is also another huge issue with the "road tune" method. I was personally and closely involved in several of the "road tune" episodes. In other words I was either the (terrified) passenger or the extremely worried driver of the car. There is nothing easy, safe or sane about driving an EVO on public roads (even if they are empty of other traffic) to measure, adjust and remeasure performance and data. Imagine the equivalent of numerous (as in many)1/8 or 1/4 mile drag race runs in a busy highway
.... OK, OK, imagine how quickly the road gets used up in a 3rd of 4th gear WOT run from a rolling start......I'm not going to say that some people cannot keep track of everything going on during these episodes to accurately and effectively tune an engine, but I will say that it would be something I could not do..... Oh yeah, even after all this, there is still no certainty whatsoever about what if any positive results were achieved. Butt dynos are notoriously unreliable. In order to get any proven results or documentation, you have to put the car on a dyno......... Yes, no matter how good the "road tune" might be, the only sure way to find out the results is by comparing the before and after dyno test results......
Finally, this might be off topic, but some of the posts appearing under some of the screen names appear to be written by completely different people.... A tuner I might no be, but I can definitely read and write. To me synthax, spelling, puntuation and use of language are extremely noticeable from person to person. I cannot believe how quickly some ppl seem to have progressed from virtual illiteracy to erudite eloquence.
Last edited by silverEVO8; Jan 11, 2006 at 12:37 PM.
silverEVO,
Not trying to argue but would like to make a point or two if I may.
You said your first tune was by Al an inconclusive. You said you didn't have before and after dyno sheets on the car, that made it inconclusive I assume.
You went on to say that someone from Boost Solutions said, "There's something wrong with this tune." I guess I don't need to remind anyone here that the guy that had boost solutions blew up MANY engines, took a lot of peoples money and didn't deliver product and then closed. There are many tuners that bad mouth the last guy to make themselves look better, this is one shop non of us should pay attention too
You then had it tuned by other guys after all this. To be honest there is no way to tell how the original tune from Al would have stacked up as it wasn't dyno'd before and after. I also don't know who these other tuners were before you dyno tune, so it very well could have made a world of difference.
I do agree road tuning is dangerous and it is hard to read and remember the data.
Al has taken some of these variables out of tuning. He uses a fairly complex datalogging system now when he road tunes. AFR, boost, Timing, knock, RPM and G forces are some of the things he datalogs. He doesn't have to watch any meters, he just drives the car and then it is recorded. When he is done this same log is layed over his tables in his Ecutek or Dynoflash software and the changes are made precisely.
Road and track tuning, in the end are going to give you great results. There is no reason for me to keep repeating this as I own one of the best dynos on the market. I'm not supporting it because that's how I tune now, I support it because if the guy tuning knows what he is doing it works.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Not trying to argue but would like to make a point or two if I may.
You said your first tune was by Al an inconclusive. You said you didn't have before and after dyno sheets on the car, that made it inconclusive I assume.
You went on to say that someone from Boost Solutions said, "There's something wrong with this tune." I guess I don't need to remind anyone here that the guy that had boost solutions blew up MANY engines, took a lot of peoples money and didn't deliver product and then closed. There are many tuners that bad mouth the last guy to make themselves look better, this is one shop non of us should pay attention too
You then had it tuned by other guys after all this. To be honest there is no way to tell how the original tune from Al would have stacked up as it wasn't dyno'd before and after. I also don't know who these other tuners were before you dyno tune, so it very well could have made a world of difference.
I do agree road tuning is dangerous and it is hard to read and remember the data.
Al has taken some of these variables out of tuning. He uses a fairly complex datalogging system now when he road tunes. AFR, boost, Timing, knock, RPM and G forces are some of the things he datalogs. He doesn't have to watch any meters, he just drives the car and then it is recorded. When he is done this same log is layed over his tables in his Ecutek or Dynoflash software and the changes are made precisely.
Road and track tuning, in the end are going to give you great results. There is no reason for me to keep repeating this as I own one of the best dynos on the market. I'm not supporting it because that's how I tune now, I support it because if the guy tuning knows what he is doing it works.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Newbie
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 59
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From: Arlington, Texas
Originally Posted by silverEVO8
This is the kind of argument that prevents logical and thoughtful discussion of the topic. Try this analogy: I drive my car to every location and on every street, thus the alignment should be done on the streets and driveways and not in some shop or other artificial environment..... In a like manner, I chew my food at the dinner table or at McDonald's, or in front of my desk at work (or wherever), thus the dentist should do his work at my dinner table..... If one begins to construct enough arguments of a similar nature, we'll soon find "valid reasons" to do all sorts of idiotic and insane things......
Regardless of how good a tune one thinks he can get from the "road tuning" tuners, it's safety, legality and ultimately it's effectiveness remain highly debatable.
I've had my cars "road tuned" and dyno tuned by several very well known tuners in these forums. The first "road tune" was done by Al and the results were very inconclusive. For one thing, I neglected to get a a baseline dyno run before and after and secondly, when boost solutions tuner got in the car as tuned by Al, he said "there is something wrong with this tune"... Of course, this is nothing but hearsay, thusly inadmissible in a good discussion. Still, it's something to think about...
Later, my car was "road tuned" innumerable times by other tuners with pretty lame results. These results were verified by subsequent dyno tests... Then, the same car was dyno tuned on a DD dyno and the results were nothing short of spectacular. Specially in light of the previous results of the "road tunes". Now, these last statements can be backed by other people's witnessing plus by dyno charts of before and after, etc.
There is also another huge issue with the "road tune" method. I was personally and closely involved in several of the "road tune" episodes. In other words I was either the (terrified) passenger or the extremely worried driver of the car. There is nothing easy, safe or sane about driving an EVO on public roads (even if they are empty of other traffic) to measure, adjust and remeasure performance and data. Imagine the equivalent of numerous (as in many)1/8 or 1/4 mile drag race runs in a busy highway.... OK, OK, imagine how quickly the road gets used up in a 3rd of 4th gear WOT run from a rolling start......
I'm not going to say that some people cannot keep track of everything going on during these episodes to accurately and effectively tune an engine, but I will say that it would be something I could not do..... Oh yeah, even after all this, there is still no certainty whatsoever about what if any positive results were achieved. Butt dynos are notoriously unreliable. In order to get any proven results or documentation, you have to put the car on a dyno......... Yes, no matter how good the "road tune" might be, the only sure way to find out the results is by comparing the before and after dyno test results......
Finally, this might be off topic, but some of the posts appearing under some of the screen names appear to be written by completely different people.... A tuner I might no be, but I can definitely read and write. To me synthax, spelling, puntuation and use of language are extremely noticeable from person to person. I cannot believe how quickly some ppl seem to have progressed from virtual illiteracy to erudite eloquence.
Regardless of how good a tune one thinks he can get from the "road tuning" tuners, it's safety, legality and ultimately it's effectiveness remain highly debatable.
I've had my cars "road tuned" and dyno tuned by several very well known tuners in these forums. The first "road tune" was done by Al and the results were very inconclusive. For one thing, I neglected to get a a baseline dyno run before and after and secondly, when boost solutions tuner got in the car as tuned by Al, he said "there is something wrong with this tune"... Of course, this is nothing but hearsay, thusly inadmissible in a good discussion. Still, it's something to think about...
Later, my car was "road tuned" innumerable times by other tuners with pretty lame results. These results were verified by subsequent dyno tests... Then, the same car was dyno tuned on a DD dyno and the results were nothing short of spectacular. Specially in light of the previous results of the "road tunes". Now, these last statements can be backed by other people's witnessing plus by dyno charts of before and after, etc.
There is also another huge issue with the "road tune" method. I was personally and closely involved in several of the "road tune" episodes. In other words I was either the (terrified) passenger or the extremely worried driver of the car. There is nothing easy, safe or sane about driving an EVO on public roads (even if they are empty of other traffic) to measure, adjust and remeasure performance and data. Imagine the equivalent of numerous (as in many)1/8 or 1/4 mile drag race runs in a busy highway
.... OK, OK, imagine how quickly the road gets used up in a 3rd of 4th gear WOT run from a rolling start......I'm not going to say that some people cannot keep track of everything going on during these episodes to accurately and effectively tune an engine, but I will say that it would be something I could not do..... Oh yeah, even after all this, there is still no certainty whatsoever about what if any positive results were achieved. Butt dynos are notoriously unreliable. In order to get any proven results or documentation, you have to put the car on a dyno......... Yes, no matter how good the "road tune" might be, the only sure way to find out the results is by comparing the before and after dyno test results......
Finally, this might be off topic, but some of the posts appearing under some of the screen names appear to be written by completely different people.... A tuner I might no be, but I can definitely read and write. To me synthax, spelling, puntuation and use of language are extremely noticeable from person to person. I cannot believe how quickly some ppl seem to have progressed from virtual illiteracy to erudite eloquence.
Very intelligent well written post.
Chris Macellaro
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
silverEVO,
Not trying to argue but would like to make a point or two if I may.
You said your first tune was by Al an inconclusive. You said you didn't have before and after dyno sheets on the car, that made it inconclusive I assume.
You went on to say that someone from Boost Solutions said, "There's something wrong with this tune." I guess I don't need to remind anyone here that the guy that had boost solutions blew up MANY engines, took a lot of peoples money and didn't deliver product and then closed. There are many tuners that bad mouth the last guy to make themselves look better, this is one shop non of us should pay attention too
You then had it tuned by other guys after all this. To be honest there is no way to tell how the original tune from Al would have stacked up as it wasn't dyno'd before and after. I also don't know who these other tuners were before you dyno tune, so it very well could have made a world of difference.
I do agree road tuning is dangerous and it is hard to read and remember the data.
Al has taken some of these variables out of tuning. He uses a fairly complex datalogging system now when he road tunes. AFR, boost, Timing, knock, RPM and G forces are some of the things he datalogs. He doesn't have to watch any meters, he just drives the car and then it is recorded. When he is done this same log is layed over his tables in his Ecutek or Dynoflash software and the changes are made precisely.
Road and track tuning, in the end are going to give you great results. There is no reason for me to keep repeating this as I own one of the best dynos on the market. I'm not supporting it because that's how I tune now, I support it because if the guy tuning knows what he is doing it works.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Not trying to argue but would like to make a point or two if I may.
You said your first tune was by Al an inconclusive. You said you didn't have before and after dyno sheets on the car, that made it inconclusive I assume.
You went on to say that someone from Boost Solutions said, "There's something wrong with this tune." I guess I don't need to remind anyone here that the guy that had boost solutions blew up MANY engines, took a lot of peoples money and didn't deliver product and then closed. There are many tuners that bad mouth the last guy to make themselves look better, this is one shop non of us should pay attention too
You then had it tuned by other guys after all this. To be honest there is no way to tell how the original tune from Al would have stacked up as it wasn't dyno'd before and after. I also don't know who these other tuners were before you dyno tune, so it very well could have made a world of difference.
I do agree road tuning is dangerous and it is hard to read and remember the data.
Al has taken some of these variables out of tuning. He uses a fairly complex datalogging system now when he road tunes. AFR, boost, Timing, knock, RPM and G forces are some of the things he datalogs. He doesn't have to watch any meters, he just drives the car and then it is recorded. When he is done this same log is layed over his tables in his Ecutek or Dynoflash software and the changes are made precisely.
Road and track tuning, in the end are going to give you great results. There is no reason for me to keep repeating this as I own one of the best dynos on the market. I'm not supporting it because that's how I tune now, I support it because if the guy tuning knows what he is doing it works.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I'm not trying to put Al's tuning down. I'm only making observations and posting my opinions and my experiences in this topic. While I'm no tuner, I certainly have had a lot of first hand experience with the results of the work of various tuners. Everybody's mileage is different and YMMV, but I found Andrew from Dyno4mance to be the best tuner for my car. I also found through hard and expensive experience that for my car, the Vishnu XEDE and Xflash along with the removal of many useless and expensive mods produced the best results. Again, please note that everything I write is the truth as far as I can tell. I'm not writing "coloration" articles or ad hominem. If I've said or written something that's not true, please educate me and I'll be very happy to offer my apologies and retractions.
Respectfully
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
I don't think the question is whether one can tune on a Dynojet. It's whether the Dynojet is a better tune device than a load bearing dyno. And the answer, obviously, is no. However, 95% of all our testing and map development is done on our DD Dyno. Right down to cell-by-cell MIVEC mapping. All of which transfers right over to the work we do on a Dynojet. So no, you don't need to tune on a load bearing dyno in order to see the benefits of having used a load bearing dyno during the map development process. In fact I mostly conduct inertial-style pulls with our DD dyno when tuning cars. This is because we've gotten to a point where partial throttle performance is already mapped the way I want it, leaving only WOT tuning which will vary from car to car and octane to octane (and require a dyno to dial in).
The only time a wrench is thrown in the works is when we see a non-standard car that hads larger than an usual injectors size, or an usual cam profile, or a built motor, etc,. When situations like that arise, a load bearing dyno becomes very useful, allowing me to map the car in a matter of 1-2 hours. Whereas getting similar results on a Dynojet would take 5-6 hrs which few would be willing to commit to. And road tuning, like tuning on a Dynojet, would also be nearly time inefficient. Customers typically don't like it when i ride the brakes for minutes on end. Neither do the brake pads. Or surrounding traffic, for that matter. And without a repeatible and stable torque readings, it's virtually impossible to know that your previous mapping change helped or hurt. And since tuning is all about making consecutive changes based upon the result of the one right before it, it's going to the be a hit or miss process in the long right. Might hit the nail on the head sometimes. But there will always be jobs left that could have been done better if better tools were at ones disposal.
Remember Al, myself and others have been road tuning cars back when you were still a personal injury laywer. You didn't invent itt. And logging Gs, boost and wideband isn't useful unless all of the data is 100% reliable and accurate. If one is questionable, the problem cannot be solved with 100% accuracy. It's like being colorblind and trying to solve a Rubics Cube. Sure, you can see shades and think you solved the problem. But sometimes your eyes can decieve you.
Please don't respond back with 6 consecutive posts. Try to organize your thoughts in one post and make life easier for the rest of us, okay?
thanks,
shiv
And Az3ar-- You're behaving like a scorned ex-girlfriend. I'm tempted to post up some of your PMs to me. Geez.. .some people are wierd.
The only time a wrench is thrown in the works is when we see a non-standard car that hads larger than an usual injectors size, or an usual cam profile, or a built motor, etc,. When situations like that arise, a load bearing dyno becomes very useful, allowing me to map the car in a matter of 1-2 hours. Whereas getting similar results on a Dynojet would take 5-6 hrs which few would be willing to commit to. And road tuning, like tuning on a Dynojet, would also be nearly time inefficient. Customers typically don't like it when i ride the brakes for minutes on end. Neither do the brake pads. Or surrounding traffic, for that matter. And without a repeatible and stable torque readings, it's virtually impossible to know that your previous mapping change helped or hurt. And since tuning is all about making consecutive changes based upon the result of the one right before it, it's going to the be a hit or miss process in the long right. Might hit the nail on the head sometimes. But there will always be jobs left that could have been done better if better tools were at ones disposal.
Remember Al, myself and others have been road tuning cars back when you were still a personal injury laywer. You didn't invent itt. And logging Gs, boost and wideband isn't useful unless all of the data is 100% reliable and accurate. If one is questionable, the problem cannot be solved with 100% accuracy. It's like being colorblind and trying to solve a Rubics Cube. Sure, you can see shades and think you solved the problem. But sometimes your eyes can decieve you.
Please don't respond back with 6 consecutive posts. Try to organize your thoughts in one post and make life easier for the rest of us, okay?
thanks,
shiv
And Az3ar-- You're behaving like a scorned ex-girlfriend. I'm tempted to post up some of your PMs to me. Geez.. .some people are wierd.
If I am reading this correctly
Then what would be the difference if you took maps you deleovloped on your DD and fine tuned them on the road?
Are you tuning every customer's car for MAX whp at TT on thier Dyno ?
How accuaretly do you think the TT DJ loads the car compared to the street ?
What is it that you are looking for when you are doing those very quick pulls on the TT dyno with your customer's cars?
How do you send out through the mail or base tunes or are they totally useless ?
About Az3ar - he is one of MANY of your former supportive customers who became no longer satisfied with your services for what ever reason. The guy who's car you tuned in the tuner transformation TV show was another. There have been dozens of exede units quietly removed here and sold. To me it does not show that I am better than you that they chose to come to me. But when you finally got your hands on a customer that did not care for his Dyno Flash experience you have to turn it into this giant pissing contest. If you look back over the years on various forums you have really succeeded in pissing off a lot of people BIG TIME and no doubt this is a continuation of much of your same behavior which has given you such a great reputation. Keep up the good work
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: Florida
My car gets 3rd and 4th gear pulls every day.... That is why I bought it. Guess that is why my insurance is over 4k a year. I will agree that road tuning is dangerous. I also believe it is more accurate. Just like tuning at the track with trap speeds. If this is incorrect, I wonder what all those Data loggers are for in Top Fuel and Formula 1. I dont think they leave the same tune from the dyno in the vehical during races. We are arguing about street tuning being reliable. Appearently it is the best form of tuning for teams and vehicals that are on the top of ALL racing venues.
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
My car gets 3rd and 4th gear pulls every day.... That is why I bought it. Guess that is why my insurance is over 4k a year. I will agree that road tuning is dangerous. I also believe it is more accurate. Just like tuning at the track with trap speeds. If this is incorrect, I wonder what all those Data loggers are for in Top Fuel and Formula 1. I dont think they leave the same tune from the dyno in the vehical during races. We are arguing about street tuning being reliable. Appearently it is the best form of tuning for teams and vehicals that are on the top of ALL racing venues.
A few comments on this
All of my road tuning is in 3rd gear
I have the variations from 3rd to 4th gear all 100% sorted out so no need to log data in 4th gear
I do not dyno cars in 4th gear either
Doing a straight a head pull in 3rd gear takes you to the mid 70 mph range which IMHO is very safe in proper locations which is why I am careful to choose good locations
My equipment does all logging 100% automatically and records the info for vieweing after the vehcile is stopped
I tuned a SCCA t2 race car this past season and realized that running it on a dyno for a pull or two was toatlly 100% useless to find out anything about how the car ran at the track
I developed my data logging equipment so I could tune THAT CAR
I could not fit inside the car so I developed a set up which would plug in for testing laps and which would give me all of the vital data I needed to accurately tune the car
The results were very positive as the car lasted all year with the original motor and head geasket and placed 5th in its class the national championship runn offs at Mid Ohio
The bottom line about what I am doing with these stock ecus is that 95% of the tuning is already completed and has been developed over the past 2 1/1 years of almost daily work on dynos to refine the reflash base maps to very high levels for a particular mod combo
Its really idiotic to think that some guy with say a BR stage One will need to have a compeltely different tuning map than some other guy with the same identical mod combo
The fact of the matter is what we do on the road to fine tune these cars is really what most dyno shops SHOULD do on the road to test the dyno tunes after they play about on the dyno afterwards
Look, we are going no where with this. The only way to verify ANY of these claims is to have the same car with the same mods tuned on the road first then test it on the dyno. Let Shiv, install an xflash or XEDE on the same car and tune it on the dyno and see what the results are. It would probably be best to have a third party set the car up on the dyno so that nothing can be fooled with before the car is tested.
Al, shouldn't you be asking yourself these questions? I mean you have stated that you have researched and developed your tunes at Pruven Performance and Buschur racing both which have DynoJets (Buschur just recently installed their mustang dyno). If the dynoJet is so primitive how were you able to properly research and develope tunes based on the DynoJet you used? If load is so important to you, why did you not seek out a better dyno?
So SHiv you are asying that you make your base maps on a DD Dyno and then you can use the primative Turbo Trixs Dyno Jet to fine tune the maps you already have made?
If I am reading this correctly
Then what would be the difference if you took maps you deleovloped on your DD and fine tuned them on the road?
Are you tuning every customer's car for MAX whp at TT on thier Dyno ?
How accuaretly do you think the TT DJ loads the car compared to the street ?
What is it that you are looking for when you are doing those very quick pulls on the TT dyno with your customer's cars?
How do you send out through the mail or base tunes or are they totally useless ?
If I am reading this correctly
Then what would be the difference if you took maps you deleovloped on your DD and fine tuned them on the road?
Are you tuning every customer's car for MAX whp at TT on thier Dyno ?
How accuaretly do you think the TT DJ loads the car compared to the street ?
What is it that you are looking for when you are doing those very quick pulls on the TT dyno with your customer's cars?
How do you send out through the mail or base tunes or are they totally useless ?
Originally Posted by Event-Horizon
Look, we are going no where with this. The only way to verify ANY of these claims is to have the same car with the same mods tuned on the road first then test it on the dyno. Let Shiv, install an xflash or XEDE on the same car and tune it on the dyno and see what the results are. It would probably be best to have a third party set the car up on the dyno so that nothing can be fooled with before the car is tested.
Al, shouldn't you be asking yourself these questions? I mean you have stated that you have researched and developed your tunes at Pruven Performance and Buschur racing both which have DynoJets (Buschur just recently installed their mustang dyno). If the dynoJet is so primitive how were you able to properly research and develope tunes based on the DynoJet you used? If load is so important to you, why did you not seek out a better dyno?
Al, shouldn't you be asking yourself these questions? I mean you have stated that you have researched and developed your tunes at Pruven Performance and Buschur racing both which have DynoJets (Buschur just recently installed their mustang dyno). If the dynoJet is so primitive how were you able to properly research and develope tunes based on the DynoJet you used? If load is so important to you, why did you not seek out a better dyno?
How many of you guys drive your cars on dynos
Just becuase the car makes X amount of power on a dyno what does that mean when you drive on the road ?
Is the tuner who is able to make the most possible WHP the "best" tuner - would that mean he wins?
I THOUGHT that I verified my claims by having probably the best record of engiune saftey and long term reliability of any of the major tuners out there and by having many happy customers who have gone fast driving the cars on roads and tracks.
Is the only way to "verify" my product to make more whp on a given dyno than some other tuner ?
What if the margin of saftey and RELIABILITY were some of my MAIN objectives ?
IF I WANTED to make tunes which were primarily SAFE and RELIABLE - would not the actual data I collect be more relevant than a dyno figure? For reference, I log TPS< IDC, Knock voltage, MAP, A/f, Ignition timing, knock retard of stock ecu, and RPMS
Wouldn't the a/f and knock be more "important" to a customer who wants to have his car last for 5 years than peak whp ?
Does it seem odd that the car in this thread is being run on such high boost and lean a/f on 91 octane fuel on the dyno logs ? IS 23 PSI OF BOOST AT 12/1 A/F a safe and good manner of tuning on 91 octane CA gas ?? What is the MARGIN of saftey left with a tune like that ? What happens when he picks up a bad tank of gas ?
Did you guys know that I tune ALCOHOL injected cars at that kind of boost levels on 91 octane
Does that make me a bad tuner IF I am more cautious?
Tell me why the Evo is so slow when its brand new - is Shiv a better tuner than
- is a buntch of loosers ?I am asking a lot of questions - let me give you some answers
I have very good base maps with my reflash program foir virtually ever mod combo out there - they are very developed and they work very well.
When I "road tune" I am simply adjusting the existing base calibration to match the particluar car and verify a very large margin of saftey. Knock threshold on the ROAD is a very important data bit you can NOT as accuartely quantify on a dyno - period.
A road tuned car is faster on the road than a dyno tuned car - NO MATTER HOW MUCH power the dyno measures becuase in many cases if you tune a car for max whp on a dyno it will knock and pull timing as soon as you drive it on a road
Particularly on 91 octane I have found that most dynos are virtually useles for properly setting up a street driven car.
Those who are interested in the subject of the use of dynos to test modern cars should read this interesting article
http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jan 11, 2006 at 02:02 PM.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
A few comments on this
All of my road tuning is in 3rd gear
I have the variations from 3rd to 4th gear all 100% sorted out so no need to log data in 4th gear
I do not dyno cars in 4th gear either
Doing a straight a head pull in 3rd gear takes you to the mid 70 mph range which IMHO is very safe in proper locations which is why I am careful to choose good locations
My equipment does all logging 100% automatically and records the info for vieweing after the vehcile is stopped
I tuned a SCCA t2 race car this past season and realized that running it on a dyno for a pull or two was toatlly 100% useless to find out anything about how the car ran at the track
I developed my data logging equipment so I could tune THAT CAR
I could not fit inside the car so I developed a set up which would plug in for testing laps and which would give me all of the vital data I needed to accurately tune the car
The results were very positive as the car lasted all year with the original motor and head geasket and placed 5th in its class the national championship runn offs at Mid Ohio
The bottom line about what I am doing with these stock ecus is that 95% of the tuning is already completed and has been developed over the past 2 1/1 years of almost daily work on dynos to refine the reflash base maps to very high levels for a particular mod combo
Its really idiotic to think that some guy with say a BR stage One will need to have a compeltely different tuning map than some other guy with the same identical mod combo
The fact of the matter is what we do on the road to fine tune these cars is really what most dyno shops SHOULD do on the road to test the dyno tunes after they play about on the dyno afterwards
All of my road tuning is in 3rd gear
I have the variations from 3rd to 4th gear all 100% sorted out so no need to log data in 4th gear
I do not dyno cars in 4th gear either
Doing a straight a head pull in 3rd gear takes you to the mid 70 mph range which IMHO is very safe in proper locations which is why I am careful to choose good locations
My equipment does all logging 100% automatically and records the info for vieweing after the vehcile is stopped
I tuned a SCCA t2 race car this past season and realized that running it on a dyno for a pull or two was toatlly 100% useless to find out anything about how the car ran at the track
I developed my data logging equipment so I could tune THAT CAR
I could not fit inside the car so I developed a set up which would plug in for testing laps and which would give me all of the vital data I needed to accurately tune the car
The results were very positive as the car lasted all year with the original motor and head geasket and placed 5th in its class the national championship runn offs at Mid Ohio
The bottom line about what I am doing with these stock ecus is that 95% of the tuning is already completed and has been developed over the past 2 1/1 years of almost daily work on dynos to refine the reflash base maps to very high levels for a particular mod combo
Its really idiotic to think that some guy with say a BR stage One will need to have a compeltely different tuning map than some other guy with the same identical mod combo
The fact of the matter is what we do on the road to fine tune these cars is really what most dyno shops SHOULD do on the road to test the dyno tunes after they play about on the dyno afterwards
top speed in gears (7500 rpm) on IX: 43.2 61.7 83.4 109.9 158.2
8: 41.1 61.7 85.6 116.8 167.2
MR: 40.9 61.2 83.0 108.2 137.1 171.7
Source: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...speed+3rd+gear
See post #4
By the way, can you please get back to me regarding the question(s) I had through PM? It's been almost two days (1.5 days to be exact) since my last reply (you confirmed reading 2 PM's but haven't confirmed reading 2 of the same ones that I reforwarded because you haven't responded).
I've been patiently waiting for your reply since I've seen that you've been on and posting quite often:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/se...nduser&u=13943
If you do not wish to communicate via PM, then please let me know here. Thank you.