Case Study: Road "Tuning" vs Dyno Tuning (Merged)
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
Again I ask, why does a reputed tuner have to ask this question? For starters:
- gasoline quality (detuned)
- altitude (detuned)
- emissions (detuned)
- Japanese "honor system" for car hp - i.e. keep it under 300 hp (detuned)
- atmospheric conditions (detuned)
Furthermore it seems to me that stock Evos read low on all Dyno Dynamics dynos as well as a lot of Mustang dynos. Again, why bother asking rethorical questions?
l8r)
- gasoline quality (detuned)
- altitude (detuned)
- emissions (detuned)
- Japanese "honor system" for car hp - i.e. keep it under 300 hp (detuned)
- atmospheric conditions (detuned)
Furthermore it seems to me that stock Evos read low on all Dyno Dynamics dynos as well as a lot of Mustang dynos. Again, why bother asking rethorical questions?
l8r)
I am asking rethorical questions to spark some mental activity on behalf of you guys
By getting you all thinking a bit, I aim to teach you something about tuning
Before I can enahce your understanding I have to spark a dialouge and have some discussion
This is how they teach you in law school so I am use to this method of discussion
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 313
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From: Atlanta
Okay I will say I have had a evo now for over 3 years and have owend a xede and have driven several of Al's old dynoflashed cars. I think Al has gotten better over the years as well as Shiv has started to push the evo's a little more then he did 2-3 years ago. I will say when Shiv tuned my evo I put over 1000 track miles going over 150 mph with 0 problems at all and I will say in the past we did not see eye to eye his products work and my car with 50k miles and 0 problems proves that. I will also say Al's old falshes FELT fast, I drove 2-3 dynoflashed cars and was thinking "Man this is faster then mine" well they were not at all it was just the big TQ but top end I would blow them away. I think Al has gotten better and now I have a ecutech flash with meth that I love. One thing that scares me about road tuning is you can never tune a car upto 150mph on the road or put anywhere NEAR the load on the car the people put it under on the street. If something goes wrong or it goes lean I want it to happen in a controlled area not on a interstate or during a track weekend 300 miles from home. Dyno tuning is really the only way to go for tuning cars, yes you can do some fine tunes on the road but you can not get upto the speeds that are seen on the track drag racing or during road racing that is all I am saying. doing a 2nd 3rd gear pull is a lot different then in 5th at 150WOT for hours on the track.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
WHY are stock evos so weak on every dyno?
WHY can most tuners reflash the ecu and make much more power so easily ?
WHy is the tune from
so weak?
WHY can most tuners reflash the ecu and make much more power so easily ?
WHy is the tune from
so weak?We know the answers to those questions and so do you, WHY are you asking them so late in the game?
Originally Posted by silverEVO8
Al, please clear up something for me. When you came to Atlanta to road tune cars, you said that my car and other cars were not responding to your adjustments equally. Actually, one could say that there seemed to be rather major differences between the various stock cars you tuned while you were here at that time. Are you saying in effect that if we had all had a BR stage One modification, our cars would have responded identically to the same tune?
I would be much more inclined to believe that there are major differences between individual cars which would make it very unlikely that you could develop a cookie cutter tune that would yield big power gains in any EVO. I think that the factory tune is the best compromise that the engineers at came up with after who knows how many thousands and thousands of hours of work and tests which would produce the best, safest levels of performance for all the cars taking into account their differences.
While I'm willing to believe that off-the-shelf flashes can modify things like the rpm cut-off and other such things, I don't believe that there is any way that a universal high power recipe can be made that will work safely or effectively in all cars. That's exactly why people like yourself and others travel around the country performing custom tunes..........
I would be much more inclined to believe that there are major differences between individual cars which would make it very unlikely that you could develop a cookie cutter tune that would yield big power gains in any EVO. I think that the factory tune is the best compromise that the engineers at
came up with after who knows how many thousands and thousands of hours of work and tests which would produce the best, safest levels of performance for all the cars taking into account their differences.While I'm willing to believe that off-the-shelf flashes can modify things like the rpm cut-off and other such things, I don't believe that there is any way that a universal high power recipe can be made that will work safely or effectively in all cars. That's exactly why people like yourself and others travel around the country performing custom tunes..........
YOUR CAR which I vividily remember has qucik trip gas and was knocking very badly when I started testing it
A quick dose of octane booster arrested most of the knock - diagnosis bad gas
After the tune you swapped in a MBC while still in the parking lot - your call - thereby changing the tune
When I encounter guys like you now - I just send them off for a 5 hour drive to burn off all the fuel and retune them on a good tank of gas - lessons learned
Originally Posted by Atlmethevo
Okay I will say I have had a evo now for over 3 years and have owend a xede and have driven several of Al's old dynoflashed cars. I think Al has gotten better over the years as well as Shiv has started to push the evo's a little more then he did 2-3 years ago. I will say when Shiv tuned my evo I put over 1000 track miles going over 150 mph with 0 problems at all and I will say in the past we did not see eye to eye his products work and my car with 50k miles and 0 problems proves that. I will also say Al's old falshes FELT fast, I drove 2-3 dynoflashed cars and was thinking "Man this is faster then mine" well they were not at all it was just the big TQ but top end I would blow them away. I think Al has gotten better and now I have a ecutech flash with meth that I love. One thing that scares me about road tuning is you can never tune a car upto 150mph on the road or put anywhere NEAR the load on the car the people put it under on the street. If something goes wrong or it goes lean I want it to happen in a controlled area not on a interstate or during a track weekend 300 miles from home. Dyno tuning is really the only way to go for tuning cars, yes you can do some fine tunes on the road but you can not get upto the speeds that are seen on the track drag racing or during road racing that is all I am saying. doing a 2nd 3rd gear pull is a lot different then in 5th at 150WOT for hours on the track.
Originally Posted by razorlab
WHY are you talking to us like we are 2 year olds now?
We know the answers to those questions and so do you, WHY are you asking them so late in the game?
We know the answers to those questions and so do you, WHY are you asking them so late in the game?
If you know the answer why
has tuned the stock evos so weakly them please share it with your fellow Vishunu haters here and enlighten us all
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Its not late in any game
If you know the answer why has tuned the stock evos so weakly them please share it with your fellow Vishunu haters here and enlighten us all
If you know the answer why
has tuned the stock evos so weakly them please share it with your fellow Vishunu haters here and enlighten us allI guess all the Dynoflash haters know the answer though right?
It doesn't have much, if anything to do with the topic-at-hand, as usual. I, for one, am not much inclined to branch off into a discussion where the tuner is likely to learn more than his intended audience. OUT!
l8r)
l8r)
Last edited by Ludikraut; Jan 11, 2006 at 04:26 PM. Reason: grammerizing
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
There have been dozens of exede units quietly removed here and sold.
I would agree that there have been a handfull of xede's here for sale, but I don't think that it is any worse than the utec's or aem units. would be interesting to see how many dynoflash customers like me have gone another route, but we will never know that. dynoflash advertises that you can sell your flash, but it is such a pain for the few $$ that you get off it, I think most just choose to have another tuner reflash/tune it.
al originally did a ttm flash and the diff was great. driveability was like stock. really made a diff. had a road tune in slc. took less than 30 minutes and my butt dyno says there was no difference in the ttm and the road tune. al stated that my car ran good initially and that he was just "fine tuning the flash". maybe that is the mark of a good tuner, but imho, a dyno tune would have shown me that al was able to improve on my ttm flash and I didn't walk away feeling like I had wasted the cash on the road tune.
that was my experience on the road tune. I would have found a dyno tune much more useful in actually showing an increase in power.
just my .02.
I would be very interested in seeing a "tune-off" between al/shiv, but I don't see it ever happening. someone would find a reason to say it wasn't a "fair" competition.
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 313
Likes: 0
From: Atlanta
5th gear WOT pulls Al, I have done it also you can NOT load up the car on the street like you can road racing or on a dyno. Now if you had a dynoflash day at say Road Atlanta and you went lap after lap tuning a car on the track then I would say cool it's good because it's never going to be pushed harder then that. But turning on the street is never going to be pushed like on a track or roadracing, there is no way you can do it.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Plese show me the dyno shop that drives your car at 150 mph or which can simulate driving 150 mph for hours on a track
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Like I said before, I have seen my bike pick up a few hp on the dyno and lose a few mph on the road. I know for sure there are cars out there (that with same driver, weight, gears, and everything) with 15 less hp and torque on the dyno, that would beat the other in the 1/4 mile. Also why do all the top racer/teams use real world tuning and not dyno's to fine tune? It does not matter if we are street use. It is still "tuning"!
I am not trying to say dyno's are useless. I'm trying to say street (or track) tuning is better once a baseline has been made. All forms of racing prove this over and over..... End of story
I am not trying to say dyno's are useless. I'm trying to say street (or track) tuning is better once a baseline has been made. All forms of racing prove this over and over..... End of story
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
But then I see today again just how narrow minded and hate filled most of you vishnuites are.
Like I said above - its time to leave you all now to insult me (have fun) - get a life your all a really pathetic lot
What you Vishnu clowns fail to understand is that I do more Evo dyno tuning than any other tuner
There is plenty of trash talking I could do about Shiv and his work - but I choose to keep it moving right along in a postive manner
It seems like you need to chill with the flame tosser Al. Your lucky you pay to be on this forum because if anyone else said committed this type of burning, they would be banned. "Vishnites, Vishnu Clown." Thanks for being the father of the equivalent to racism here at EvoM.
Originally Posted by Atlmethevo
Roadrace Track Tuning > Dyno Tuning > Street Tuning
Your constantly changing the load, throttle, accelerating, decelerating rapidly, ect.
I don't think that would be the best enviornment to tune a car. I think tuning on a dyno and testing it on the track would be the best IMO.
BTW. Speedlimit. My hawks are going to kill your patriots if they make it, but I think Payton is finally going to get his revenge before they get a chance.
Last edited by Cloud; Jan 11, 2006 at 05:09 PM.
Evolved Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,014
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by Atlmethevo
5th gear WOT pulls Al, I have done it also you can NOT load up the car on the street like you can road racing or on a dyno. Now if you had a dynoflash day at say Road Atlanta and you went lap after lap tuning a car on the track then I would say cool it's good because it's never going to be pushed harder then that. But turning on the street is never going to be pushed like on a track or roadracing, there is no way you can do it.
