Case Study: Road "Tuning" vs Dyno Tuning (Merged)
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu
Hiya,
I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but could you please explain to me the importance of wind resistance and tire friction when it comes to tuning an engine?
As for accurate air cooling, I agree 100% that it is critical in proper dyno testing. But ensuring that realistic condition doesn't require much more than a good clean air source, good fans and a thermocouple to measure charge temps.
I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, but could you please explain to me the importance of wind resistance and tire friction when it comes to tuning an engine?
As for accurate air cooling, I agree 100% that it is critical in proper dyno testing. But ensuring that realistic condition doesn't require much more than a good clean air source, good fans and a thermocouple to measure charge temps.
BTW - you should know that ferrari does its dyno testingfor F1 INSIDE a wind tunnel
Of course no dyno fan is capable of providing proper air flow which can replicate the air flow at 75 mph which is one of the challenges of getting a decent tune on a dyno
I have found that it takes a significant "cooling" period between dyno pulls to allow the car to stablize at a proper temprature - however I have heard that you do pulls back to back one after the other when you dyno
Anyone who has any experince in this business will realize that tuning method and dyno operation is critical to obtain a accurate REAL WORLD llaoding on the vehicle when tuning on a dyno
The DYNO is a machine which attempts to REPLICATE the conditions of the real street where the vehicle is used
Last edited by DynoFlash; Jan 11, 2006 at 08:58 PM.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
The DYNO REPLICATES the conditions of the real street where the vehicle is used
Originally Posted by keevo54
Quick Trip gas is bad, or did he put in the wrong octane?
The octane of a fuel is something you are trusting the gas staion to fulfil
I have seen the knock resistance very significantly with the same brand of fuel at different times
This is one of the key reasons why good tuning requires a significant margin of saftey to afford for that ocassional bad tank of gas and make sure there is some "head room" in the tune to allow for gas variation
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Few people appreciate how changable the quality of the fuel used is
The octane of a fuel is something you are trusting the gas staion to fulfil
I have seen the knock resistance very significantly with the same brand of fuel at different times
This is one of the key reasons why good tuning requires a significant margin of saftey to afford for that ocassional bad tank of gas and make sure there is some "head room" in the tune to allow for gas variation
The octane of a fuel is something you are trusting the gas staion to fulfil
I have seen the knock resistance very significantly with the same brand of fuel at different times
This is one of the key reasons why good tuning requires a significant margin of saftey to afford for that ocassional bad tank of gas and make sure there is some "head room" in the tune to allow for gas variation
One of the reasons SMART is kinda cool
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
I'll take a stab ...
The Good:
- Tuning at the track has you driving your car in real-world conditions
- As long as nothing goes wrong, you end up with a good 1/4 mile tune
The Bad:
- When tuning at the 1/4 mile strip, you only get a full pull in 1st gear, all other gears won't get below 5000 rpm. Not exactly what I'd look for in a "tune"
- No chance to map partial throttle at all, since you're at WOT all the time
- Not exactly optimal to tune for other conditions, such as road-racing ... i.e. you are not stressing the engine long enough
- You cannot monitor more than a few things at a time, and the faster you go, the fewer things you will have time to monitor (read: keeping the car in control will start taking 100% of your time if you're fast enough).
The Ugly:
- If something goes wrong, things can get really dangerous, really fast. When you're hauling *** down your lane at over 100mph and your boost suddenly starts to climb, you're very unlikely to be in a position to react in time.
Depending on the track layout, tuning on a circuit race track would be more appropriate when tuning for daily driving.
Tuning on public roads, IMO, is not only not accurate enough but also irresponsible.
l8r)
The Good:
- Tuning at the track has you driving your car in real-world conditions
- As long as nothing goes wrong, you end up with a good 1/4 mile tune
The Bad:
- When tuning at the 1/4 mile strip, you only get a full pull in 1st gear, all other gears won't get below 5000 rpm. Not exactly what I'd look for in a "tune"
- No chance to map partial throttle at all, since you're at WOT all the time
- Not exactly optimal to tune for other conditions, such as road-racing ... i.e. you are not stressing the engine long enough
- You cannot monitor more than a few things at a time, and the faster you go, the fewer things you will have time to monitor (read: keeping the car in control will start taking 100% of your time if you're fast enough).
The Ugly:
- If something goes wrong, things can get really dangerous, really fast. When you're hauling *** down your lane at over 100mph and your boost suddenly starts to climb, you're very unlikely to be in a position to react in time.
Depending on the track layout, tuning on a circuit race track would be more appropriate when tuning for daily driving.
Tuning on public roads, IMO, is not only not accurate enough but also irresponsible.
l8r)
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 106
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From: Florida
Originally Posted by Cloud
No reputable tuner would fabricate their results. And ask anyone, BR, Al, Shiv, any reputable tuner, and ask them if dyno #s matter. They will all say yes since the #s you put down are YOUR numbers. If you showing 215hp on any of their dynos, and another car is putting down 250 on the same dyno, their trap speed is going to be higher then yours. None of those tuners fabricate their results.
I bet I'm not the only person who thinks that post is wack.
I'm not trying to bash you, I'm just stating my opinons. Trap speed is directly related to the power your putting down.
Also my what I said about how tuning
on a dyno for the track doesn't seem to foolish now does it after his post?
I bet I'm not the only person who thinks that post is wack.
I'm not trying to bash you, I'm just stating my opinons. Trap speed is directly related to the power your putting down.
Also my what I said about how tuning
on a dyno for the track doesn't seem to foolish now does it after his post?
Please check back to the first page of this post.
Also I never said any of those people did change dyno #'s. Can you tell me that noone does? Can you go to the track and ask them to buff a mph so your customer can see a better time? I think not. That was my point.
Like the other post with the f1 dyno info, not 1 shop uses all those paramiters. I think Al uses all of or more data than most shops. With all of these logged and checked in the "real world", I would think the tune would be more accurate.
I repeat, before you bother highlighting any of my sentences.... Discredit street tuning like the starter of this thread. Or atleast give me your best thought on why it is useless. Anything else you have to say about this or that not related to the topic I do not care about. Thanks, signed: I tuned my junk on the street (myself ,ehhmmm)
Originally Posted by SuperHatch
Ok.... and posted earlier....
So, if you used a base flash on this guys car, it shouldn't have knocked anyway, since safety is your number one priority. Is anyone else here seeing inconsistency?
- Steve
So, if you used a base flash on this guys car, it shouldn't have knocked anyway, since safety is your number one priority. Is anyone else here seeing inconsistency?
- Steve
In the case of this customer - the car was knocking with the stock tune - which is not very common on 93 octane but very common on 91
Originally Posted by evillution
See thats the thing Al you have progressed since then does this mean that in another 3 years I will read the same thing?
Its like someone once said. "Would you say 10 years ago you where as smart as you are now?" answer was no and of course "It's gonna take you 10 more years to realize you are still not smart"
Only conclusion I came to was that your a straight shooting man. That doesn't cut it for me I want answer's no matter how dumb the question is.
Its like someone once said. "Would you say 10 years ago you where as smart as you are now?" answer was no and of course "It's gonna take you 10 more years to realize you are still not smart"
Only conclusion I came to was that your a straight shooting man. That doesn't cut it for me I want answer's no matter how dumb the question is.
In the past 2 months I have made huge improvements
I would say in tuning if your product is not getting better you are going out of business
I learn more every day also
Thread Starter
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Hey Al,
Do you think you can show run #1 of Az3ar's car? Also, what about that challenge that you and Dave posed? I'd be interested in doing such a thing. Might be a good way to put some of the claims made in this thread to rest.
-shiv
Do you think you can show run #1 of Az3ar's car? Also, what about that challenge that you and Dave posed? I'd be interested in doing such a thing. Might be a good way to put some of the claims made in this thread to rest.
-shiv
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From: North Mexico (Inland Empire)
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I
A quick dose of octane booster arrested most of the knock - diagnosis bad gas
When I encounter guys like you now - I just send them off for a 5 hour drive to burn off all the fuel and retune them on a good tank of gas - lessons learned
A quick dose of octane booster arrested most of the knock - diagnosis bad gas
When I encounter guys like you now - I just send them off for a 5 hour drive to burn off all the fuel and retune them on a good tank of gas - lessons learned
My point is, Al there are many conditions that u are unprepared for on these tuning trips, and it does put u at a disadvantage when it comes to ensuring the best possible tune. I honestly believe that on 91oct your Maps are ultra conservative and not making the desired power of the customers out West. Most of the complaints about your tuning have been out West or in the land of 91 oct.
I think u are tuning just fine on the East Coast as your customers can attest. However, out here I have witnessed alot of inconsistencies with your tunes at Dyno Days. Some tunes are very competitive and top notch, while others are 20-40 whp off of the expected tune. I hope u can take this post as constructive criticism and not an attack on u or your tuning.
Also don't tell Speedlimit that I am attacking u because I am not.
Last edited by IE Evo; Jan 11, 2006 at 09:57 PM.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
The DYNO is a machine which attempts to REPLICATE the conditions of the real street where the vehicle is used
Originally Posted by IE Evo
Does Octane Booster work? Also why not just drain the gas into a can and put some good stuff in there. Oh yeah I forgot, it is a "Road Tune" and how could you prepare for all the possible problems that might transpire.
My point is, Al there are many conditions that u are unprepared for on these tuning trips, and it does put u at a disadvantage when it comes to ensuring the best possible tune. I honestly believe that on 91oct your Maps are ultra conservative and not making the desired power of the customers out West. Most of the complaints about your tuning have been out West or in the land of 91 oct.
I think u are tuning just fine on the East Coast as your customers can attest. However, out here I have witnessed alot of inconsistencies with your tunes at Dyno Days. Some tunes are very competitive and top notch, while others are 20-40 whp off of the expected tune. I hope u can take this post as constructive criticism and not an attack on u or your tuning.
Also don't tell Speedlimit that I am attacking u because I am not.
My point is, Al there are many conditions that u are unprepared for on these tuning trips, and it does put u at a disadvantage when it comes to ensuring the best possible tune. I honestly believe that on 91oct your Maps are ultra conservative and not making the desired power of the customers out West. Most of the complaints about your tuning have been out West or in the land of 91 oct.
I think u are tuning just fine on the East Coast as your customers can attest. However, out here I have witnessed alot of inconsistencies with your tunes at Dyno Days. Some tunes are very competitive and top notch, while others are 20-40 whp off of the expected tune. I hope u can take this post as constructive criticism and not an attack on u or your tuning.
Also don't tell Speedlimit that I am attacking u because I am not.
I tune it there to avoid knok induced ecu pulling of timing which results in a roiugh power band.
I try to set up the tune so there is no knock even on 91
Some tuners push the tunes hard enough that the car actually knocks and the ecu pulls timing. This is popular with the SAFc crowd. It can make decent power but the cost is low TQ and lack of smoothness.
91 octane cali gas is not a fuel that you want to try to set land speed records with. Its a good parts cleaner - period.
Tuning on it has to be on the safe side
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
Cool. Now answer my real post on this matter and discredit street tuning.....
Please check back to the first page of this post.
Also I never said any of those people did change dyno #'s. Can you tell me that noone does? Can you go to the track and ask them to buff a mph so your customer can see a better time? I think not. That was my point.
Like the other post with the f1 dyno info, not 1 shop uses all those paramiters. I think Al uses all of or more data than most shops. With all of these logged and checked in the "real world", I would think the tune would be more accurate.
I repeat, before you bother highlighting any of my sentences.... Discredit street tuning like the starter of this thread. Or atleast give me your best thought on why it is useless. Anything else you have to say about this or that not related to the topic I do not care about. Thanks, signed: I tuned my junk on the street (myself ,ehhmmm)
Please check back to the first page of this post.
Also I never said any of those people did change dyno #'s. Can you tell me that noone does? Can you go to the track and ask them to buff a mph so your customer can see a better time? I think not. That was my point.
Like the other post with the f1 dyno info, not 1 shop uses all those paramiters. I think Al uses all of or more data than most shops. With all of these logged and checked in the "real world", I would think the tune would be more accurate.
I repeat, before you bother highlighting any of my sentences.... Discredit street tuning like the starter of this thread. Or atleast give me your best thought on why it is useless. Anything else you have to say about this or that not related to the topic I do not care about. Thanks, signed: I tuned my junk on the street (myself ,ehhmmm)