Case Study: Road "Tuning" vs Dyno Tuning (Merged)
i think it all comes down to which tuner the customer will choose but if this customer is a wise person when spending his money he would spend it on the tuner that uses a dyno so that he may see what kind of gains the car had and if it was worth what he payed for!!
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Originally Posted by jrsimon27
they use the track to gather information so that they can tune it on a dyno!
If you look back I said that the dyno is very useful for finding the base map. Stop breaking each post down and take them as a whole. I fine tune at the track anyway most of the time. And still ... how is road tuning not accurate like the post topic claims. That is what all of this is about. I never said a dyno is useless. I'm saying that road tuning can be more accurate with the right tuner.
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
From: Florida
Originally Posted by jrsimon27
i think it all comes down to which tuner the customer will choose but if this customer is a wise person when spending his money he would spend it on the tuner that uses a dyno so that he may see what kind of gains the car had and if it was worth what he payed for!!
No thanks, I want to see trap speed results.
when i was stock i had my car run 13.2sec at 100.7mph on street like conditions,my cars weight was 3004lbs with have a tank of 91oct, street tires had 32psi the front and 29psi the back tires and 1000feet above see level with a 29 degrees celsius! i was happy!
when i instaled my vishnu products i got a 12.3sec at 109mph on street like onditions not track my car weight was 2958lbs with less then half a tank on 91oct street tires had the same psi as stated above and it was at see level with an ambient temp of 26celsius!
i think i achieve this results cause its a jdm model also iam used to dump the clutch at 7000++rpms!!
when i instaled my vishnu products i got a 12.3sec at 109mph on street like onditions not track my car weight was 2958lbs with less then half a tank on 91oct street tires had the same psi as stated above and it was at see level with an ambient temp of 26celsius!
i think i achieve this results cause its a jdm model also iam used to dump the clutch at 7000++rpms!!
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
YOUR CAR which I vividily remember has qucik trip gas and was knocking very badly when I started testing it
A quick dose of octane booster arrested most of the knock - diagnosis bad gas
When I encounter guys like you now - I just send them off for a 5 hour drive to burn off all the fuel and retune them on a good tank of gas - lessons learned
A quick dose of octane booster arrested most of the knock - diagnosis bad gas
When I encounter guys like you now - I just send them off for a 5 hour drive to burn off all the fuel and retune them on a good tank of gas - lessons learned
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
What is the MARGIN of saftey left with a tune like that ? What happens when he picks up a bad tank of gas ?
- Steve
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
Ok you win. Still waiting for proof that road tuning is not accurate.
in no way i want to discredit road tuning! what i want to say is that we here in evom must be more wise when we spend our money but if people dont like to see results on a dyno well fine, you think that trap speeds tell how much horspower and torque you have?? no they dont !
Steve, if one were to spend the time and really look at Al's post history, one could probably come up with dozens of inconsistencies like that ... and that's not even counting any number of threads that have been deleted.
Personally I find it fascinating how a number of questions keep getting resolutely ignored (or questions that are "answered" with questions). Sometimes I feel like I've been thrown back into my 8th grade homeroom again.
l8r)
Personally I find it fascinating how a number of questions keep getting resolutely ignored (or questions that are "answered" with questions). Sometimes I feel like I've been thrown back into my 8th grade homeroom again.
l8r)
Originally Posted by SuperHatch
Ok.... and posted earlier....
So, if you used a base flash on this guys car, it shouldn't have knocked anyway, since safety is your number one priority. Is anyone else here seeing inconsistency?
- Steve
So, if you used a base flash on this guys car, it shouldn't have knocked anyway, since safety is your number one priority. Is anyone else here seeing inconsistency?
- Steve
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
I'll take a stab ...
The Good:
- Tuning at the track has you driving your car in real-world conditions
- As long as nothing goes wrong, you end up with a good 1/4 mile tune
The Bad:
- When tuning at the 1/4 mile strip, you only get a full pull in 1st gear, all other gears won't get below 5000 rpm. Not exactly what I'd look for in a "tune"
- No chance to map partial throttle at all, since you're at WOT all the time
- Not exactly optimal to tune for other conditions, such as road-racing ... i.e. you are not stressing the engine long enough
- You cannot monitor more than a few things at a time, and the faster you go, the fewer things you will have time to monitor (read: keeping the car in control will start taking 100% of your time if you're fast enough).
The Ugly:
- If something goes wrong, things can get really dangerous, really fast. When you're hauling *** down your lane at over 100mph and your boost suddenly starts to climb, you're very unlikely to be in a position to react in time.
Depending on the track layout, tuning on a circuit race track would be more appropriate when tuning for daily driving.
Tuning on public roads, IMO, is not only not accurate enough but also irresponsible.
l8r)
The Good:
- Tuning at the track has you driving your car in real-world conditions
- As long as nothing goes wrong, you end up with a good 1/4 mile tune
The Bad:
- When tuning at the 1/4 mile strip, you only get a full pull in 1st gear, all other gears won't get below 5000 rpm. Not exactly what I'd look for in a "tune"
- No chance to map partial throttle at all, since you're at WOT all the time
- Not exactly optimal to tune for other conditions, such as road-racing ... i.e. you are not stressing the engine long enough
- You cannot monitor more than a few things at a time, and the faster you go, the fewer things you will have time to monitor (read: keeping the car in control will start taking 100% of your time if you're fast enough).
The Ugly:
- If something goes wrong, things can get really dangerous, really fast. When you're hauling *** down your lane at over 100mph and your boost suddenly starts to climb, you're very unlikely to be in a position to react in time.
Depending on the track layout, tuning on a circuit race track would be more appropriate when tuning for daily driving.
Tuning on public roads, IMO, is not only not accurate enough but also irresponsible.
l8r)
An experienced tuner will be able to get the car tuned on around 4-8pulls. Thats a guess but from my experience my road tunes in my dsm were always good after about 6-7 3rd gear pulls.
Originally Posted by Jim_Patterson
When you tune a car you dont just go ***** to the wall threw all gears. You do pulls like on a dyno. You make a third gear pull, check the log make adjustments, another third gear pull, make adjustments. Some tuners even will continue on in 4th to make sure the tune isnt going to be dangerous.
An experienced tuner will be able to get the car tuned on around 4-8pulls. Thats a guess but from my experience my road tunes in my dsm were always good after about 6-7 3rd gear pulls.
An experienced tuner will be able to get the car tuned on around 4-8pulls. Thats a guess but from my experience my road tunes in my dsm were always good after about 6-7 3rd gear pulls.
l8r)
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I came to Atlanta nearly 3 years ago - my product has progressed a lot since then and so has my experience. Also, the techonolgy I employ has advanced since then.
Its like someone once said. "Would you say 10 years ago you where as smart as you are now?" answer was no and of course "It's gonna take you 10 more years to realize you are still not smart"
Only conclusion I came to was that your a straight shooting man. That doesn't cut it for me I want answer's no matter how dumb the question is.
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
Thanks for all that interesting info. Now all of that is needed to simulate what? REAL WORLD CONDITIONS.... So now I'm guessing all these "other" dyno shops have the same thing so they can replicate the "Real world".... Or maybe the real world would be more accurate if you do not have a 1 billion dollar dyno to tune with... And I was being serious when I thanked you for that detailed information.
Sure you can "rough in" you tune on the road make an adjustment for weather conditions at the track but if you want to be sure, really sure, you do your testing on the dyno. The dyno gives you the ability to sneak up on the optimum parameters to a degree the a "road tuner" could never dream of (maybe that's why you and others just don't understand) because with less variables the data is purer so the tune is of a higher resolution and the results are absolutely better (that's of course assuming the guy behind the laptop is sharp enough to take advantage of this).
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
I never said I could take a 900 hp Supra..... I couldn't take a bpu supra from a roll.... The track hp I was talking about was trap speed vs vehical weight gives a certain whp. This is not an accurate formula because of wheel spin, aerodynamics, etc.. But it can tell you if improvements were made. My comments about the dyno numbers is because most people are soo stuck on how much whp they make and it doesnt matter for the most part. Also you didn't provide any useful information on street tune vs dyno tune on your answer. You just tried to bash me instead. Thanks and carry on.
No reputable tuner would fabricate their results. And ask anyone, BR, Al, Shiv, any reputable tuner, and ask them if dyno #s matter. They will all say yes since the #s you put down are YOUR numbers. If you showing 215hp on any of their dynos, and another car is putting down 250 on the same dyno, their trap speed is going to be higher then yours. None of those tuners fabricate their results.
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
Once again... Come to my dyno so I can install my "Special Blinker Fluid and Piston return spring" and I'll show you they make power.
No thanks, I want to see trap speed results.
No thanks, I want to see trap speed results.
I'm not trying to bash you, I'm just stating my opinons. Trap speed is directly related to the power your putting down.
Originally Posted by poormansracecar
Who said tuning was not involved? Who said I used a "butt dyno" ? I'm not narrow minded. Trap speeds with same temp/humidity do not lie. A dyno can be manipulated to show whatever the operator wants it to say. Once again...... why do all the racing venues use data logging on the track? Is it so they can have something to talk about after the race? Maybe just to be cool and have the newest gadget? Race Track> Road > Dyno What part of "real environment" do people not understand? ie: wind resistance, tire friction, accurate air cooling... etc
Also my what I said about how tuning
Originally Posted by Cloud
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but could you accurately tune on a roadrace track?
Your constantly changing the load, throttle, accelerating, decelerating rapidly, ect.
I don't think that would be the best enviornment to tune a car. I think tuning on a dyno and testing it on the track would be the best IMO.
Originally Posted by chronohunter
No way I have to call BS on this one. F1 teams do not tune at the track, it has been said here wrongly several times now. They have the most sophisticated dynos in the world with the engine doing the exact same lap for the next race hooked up to the gearbox a computer and in a controlled sealed dyno room where the control the atmospheric conditions exactly. The can control altitude (baro pressure), humidity, temperature etc. The engine is tested under these controlled conditions through the range of weather conditions that they may face. It is all done on the dyno, all possible conditions all loads simulated over and over by the computer running the engine till they are satisfied.
When at the track they measure the weather conditions and load in the map that they developed on the dyno.
They do the same thing with the chassis, the car is put on a 8 post rig that perfectly replicates the track and loads the chassis will encounter and they run through controlled simulations testing every variable.
See the pattern, on the dyno (weather engine or chassis) you can isolate the variables and absolutely control the conditions of the test. F1 drivers don't even get to choose the set-up of the car anymore, they log the data and send it via satellite up link to the factory where they run simulations on the 8 post rig and come up with the solution which the beam back to the team at the track (I kid you not).
The point is that they do gather ridiculous amounts of data, all so they can better simulate those conditions under control on the dynos. The track is not for tuning it is for data gathering, the dyno(s) are used for tuning.
We did the low budget version in Word Challenge GT the last couple of years. Cosworth would dyno the engines under all possible conditions and load all those maps into the laptop we'd get to the track check the weather and load the right map, then monitor the car to check to make sure the engine was running properly, if it wasn't the map wasn't changed the engine problem was diagnosed and the parts (sensors etc.) were replaced. The map was always trusted because it was made under controlled and verified conditions.
When at the track they measure the weather conditions and load in the map that they developed on the dyno.
They do the same thing with the chassis, the car is put on a 8 post rig that perfectly replicates the track and loads the chassis will encounter and they run through controlled simulations testing every variable.
See the pattern, on the dyno (weather engine or chassis) you can isolate the variables and absolutely control the conditions of the test. F1 drivers don't even get to choose the set-up of the car anymore, they log the data and send it via satellite up link to the factory where they run simulations on the 8 post rig and come up with the solution which the beam back to the team at the track (I kid you not).
The point is that they do gather ridiculous amounts of data, all so they can better simulate those conditions under control on the dynos. The track is not for tuning it is for data gathering, the dyno(s) are used for tuning.
We did the low budget version in Word Challenge GT the last couple of years. Cosworth would dyno the engines under all possible conditions and load all those maps into the laptop we'd get to the track check the weather and load the right map, then monitor the car to check to make sure the engine was running properly, if it wasn't the map wasn't changed the engine problem was diagnosed and the parts (sensors etc.) were replaced. The map was always trusted because it was made under controlled and verified conditions.
Last edited by Cloud; Jan 11, 2006 at 08:41 PM.