Either "tune" would do....
I've tried both....and it reallly all depends on the customer's needs/wants out of the car. For example, I road-tracked my EVO, and handling + driving skills were priority over the tune of the engine. If I were drag-racing, then I might have focused more on the engine-tune.
Saying that, I would like to just add that putting someone down - just to elevate oneself - is pure insecurity....and stinks of CLASSLESS behavior (even on business ethics). Not something a real MAN would do.....bashing (especially over the internet) stinks of WUSSY behavior....something little kids would do

 

On topic-this is a hard one. I personally think dyno tuning is much safer and more rewarding. I like having baseline runs and then seeing the end result. But to say a road tune isn't as good is just ridiculous. My 03 was road tuned and went just as fast as all the other Buschur stage 4 cars in the country. The dyno was broke and we didn't have a choice. I think dyno's are great tuning devices and should be used as such. Just tuning devices. I think going to the track is the most effective way to see exactly what kind of hp is really being made. I don't really care if someone in NY made 10 more hp than me on a different dyno. Dyno numbers are one thing and et/mph is another. Can't we all just get along

 

okay kinda confused looking at the first run doesnt look like boost leak al says there was compared to when he did. Can you please just scan it like you did the big ones so I can see whether it was tuned at a higher boost level?

Another point is that the parts where taken off. If there was no boost leak which by the chart which I say there didnt seem to be any. I could be wrong I am in no way a tuner or know probably 1/4 of what most people on here know, But would'nt this be a disadvantage as all parts are proven to increase horepower?

I really dont get Al I really hope you can post your original graphs to give a noob like me insight cuz I just dont get it.

 

Why don’t you people get it? This thread was never intended to bash any other product or tuner. It was designed to show the differences between that of road tuning and Dyno tuning. Shiv backed up his claims with data and hard facts. Other members tried to discredit this information with un-backed claims and techno-babble that make no sense. The fact is, Shiv made a very strong case against road tuning and it pushed a lot of buttons.

What did happen here is that some members took this to heart like it was a personal attack against them or their tuner company. So instead of it being a thread of great information it quickly turned into a pissing match. If members are going to act like children then they should use what they learned as a child: "if you have nothing nice to say, then do not say anything at all."

Why cant certain individuals just be satisfied with the fact that one Evo IX owner is satisfied with his car now. We all drive the same car, why do we have to be biased towards members that have different tuners? It’s just stilly.

Here is my take on road tuning. I believe that road tuning is very dangerous and probably illegal too. The conditions are never controlled and there is always the potential for someone to pull out in front of you or to change lanes at the right moment. If your car is wrecked during a road tuning session, who is responsible, you are. With a controlled environment using a dyno you can see power increases or decreases made by the changes done to the map in real time on most dynos. That’s something you cannot do with road tuning. With road tuning you may be able to see changes to AFR or boost, but you’ll never really know if that increase in boost, or that decrease in timing really did much of anything. I guess as long as some people’s butt dyno’s feel the difference then the tune will be ok.

 

This is the ignorance that is killing me. You would have to be incredibly naive to believe this thread's creation was so innocent. This example did NOT show the differences between road tuning and Dyno tuning. If you REALLY believe that based on these results, then Shiv's job is done. He got you to believe something that isn't true based off one anomalous example. Unfortunately, there's a bunch of newbies who got fooled, too, but luckily the market as a whole is already dominated, so it won't make a big dent in business.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warrtalon

This is the ignorance that is killing me. You would have to be incredibly naive to believe this thread's creation was so innocent. This example did NOT show the differences between road tuning and Dyno tuning.

Did you even read the first post of this thread? There are plenty of dyno charts that show and explain the differences between the road tune and the dyno tune. Explain to me how it DOES NOT show the difference.

Quote:

If you REALLY believe that based on these results, then Shiv's job is done. He got you to believe something that isn't true based off one anomalous example.

You’re right; I do believe what Shiv has posted here. I do not believe that this is one random case either. I have heard of several owners complain of their road tunes, many of them local to me.

Quote:

Unfortunately, there's a bunch of newbies who got fooled, too, but luckily the market as a whole is already dominated, so it won't make a big dent in business.

I completely agree with you.

 

So here is an attempt at an actual technical question on topic.

Shiv - you asked for RPM logs earlier in this thread ... what is the significance of this request and what do you feel it would add technically to the discussion?

Do you think it would reveal something that shows some weakness of road tuning? Or do you simply believe Al doesn't log RPM at all ... and what would be the implied ramification of that? Is it that without an RPM log, one wouldn't know exactly which cells in the various maps to adjust after the logging session since they are tied to RPMs?

This question comes without bias toward either 'camp', but simply from a desire to understand the technical points that are being raised here. So I hope it doesn't **** anyone off

 

Al, could you respond to this post.

The customer stated his experiance/opinion and you have not responded, although you have made many post afterwards.

IMHO, nice and professional additudes go further in chosing tuners then Dyno charts and 1/4 mile times.

 

Hi Joshd,
The RPM log is critical when it comes to quantifying, among other things, high RPM boost taper. That seemed to be one of the topics of debate early on in the thread. But without that data, i don't quite see how the posted boost logs (with respect to time) are providing any factual counterpoint. The other issues involved with not having (or using) an RPM input for tuning is also there. But I'm not one to question how others actually tune and what kind of info they need to do their job. To each his own...

Regards,
Shiv

 

Shivs claim proves nothing on road tune vs dyno tune. There were variables that were never uncovered period. The only way for Shiv to prove his tune is better than Al's is to get them together on the same car and on the same day. Not a car that came in with a problem. I am in no way defending Al, but I do believe there was a problem with the car. Maybe it was even a bad tune. But we will never know becasue Shiv never diagnosed the problem correctly. He took it apart and started over, whether it was his idea or not. It also isn't right to belittle someone and not know all the facts. Even if he did have all the facts it isn't very professional to do so. If this person was unhappy with the road tune and the parts, he should've called the people he dealt with and had them fix the problem. I know Buschur stands behind their products and I'm sure Al would do the same. This whole thread really isn't about road tune vs dyno tune based on the information given anyways. And I can honestly say I would never buy a Vishnu part due to his behavior.

 

What problem was there? There was no problem. That’s why shiv did baseline pulls of the road tune to see if there was a problem and none existed. If you look at the first dyno chart, Shiv's base flash was running less boost than the road tune. What sort of problem do you believe would have existed on a brand new Evo IX? The bottom line is the customer was unhappy and wanted a second opinion.

When has it become a bad thing to do comparisons between other companies? These types of comparisons happen all the time: Coke vs Pepsi, McDonalds Vs Burger King, Chevy Vs Ford. You don’t see Company A *****ing and moaning when Company B compares their products to Company A's. A comparison allows for two things to happen: the customer to make an educated decision on which product is better, and allows for the other company to improve on their mistakes. However, in this case, because one tune did a much better job it becomes a thread of "there must have been something wrong with the car" or "This tuner is hurting the other tuners feelings." Why is it we allow certain tuners to get away with things that we hang others for? Why the double standard?

 

Please?

l8r)

 

and hopefully most knows your trying real hard to find your truth!

(my last post in this thread.. I still like looking at the graph though. Damn thats some nice torque.)

 

There are always comparisons in the market, the difference here is in tuning cars there is a lot of "smoke in mirrors" If McDonalds did a test against Burger King you can bet your *** they will have there info 100% correct or else there would be a huge law suit for slander. With tuners it's what they say and what they post and some of the things Shiv has done / said in the past he is not 100% credible. Also it goes beyond just products Shiv has a PERSONAL problem with Al and likes to throw punches at him with his customers in the middle. When was the last time AMS, Saleen, Lingerfilter, Comptech, took a personal attack at someone? They don’t because they are a true tuner and they let there work and factory backed products show they know there stuff.

 

But yet those you vote for every 4 years for president of this country employ the same tactics on each other. Its how we do business in this country. If you find a flaw in someones work, you run with it. From that first page, all i saw was data to back up there was NO LEAK. I'm no tuner, but do I have to be to see that there was no leak. I saw that the car made more usable power with the stock parts (airbox and uip) in place with a tune, than it did with all those replacement parts with another tune. Maybe this is abnormal because it seems this event has happened only twice for Al, but now that he is aware, i'm sure he'll know to look out for it. Vishnu is across the country and Al is in my state. I would love to get a vishnu custom tune but if the time comes and hes not on the east coast, I wouldnt mind getting my car tuned by Al. They are both great tuners and usually produce great and consistant results. This time though, one caught the other off-guard.