how does Shiv feel about the 20GIX turbo
That's too bad. I really wanted to see that to compare spooling characteristics.
I used to have a great torque curve with the TME. Since installing the 20G-9, peak hp is up only slightly, but my torque curve has vanished. This is done with a DD dyno, so these numbers are ~15% lower than a DJ. Peak power is fine, but midrange torque with the 20G-9 has all but vanished. Here's the comparisons between the TME (red) and 20G-9 (blue):
I used to have a great torque curve with the TME. Since installing the 20G-9, peak hp is up only slightly, but my torque curve has vanished. This is done with a DD dyno, so these numbers are ~15% lower than a DJ. Peak power is fine, but midrange torque with the 20G-9 has all but vanished. Here's the comparisons between the TME (red) and 20G-9 (blue):
The boost curve looks strange in the midrange, only because we turned down the boost when we found that increasing it further made no more torque. I still have no good explanation for that.
Originally Posted by IE Evo
Prophet Smoggy in action.
Links:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ne...eply&p=2719058
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ne...eply&p=2718898
Actually, IMHO, Dave more often blows expectations out of proportion and backs off less often. Just read the couple of threads where he continually repeats 20g 8 at 328whp = 124mph. Then look at his 500whp on a dynojet statements. It took me nipping at his ankles before he reminded everyone of just how extensively his RS has been modified.
Also, have you seen Evom member Creamo3's signature? https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/members/9726-creamo3.html
Are those dyno #'s from Al's tune with the 20g? That was on race fuel at 26psi.
Links:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ne...eply&p=2719058
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ne...eply&p=2718898
Actually, IMHO, Dave more often blows expectations out of proportion and backs off less often. Just read the couple of threads where he continually repeats 20g 8 at 328whp = 124mph. Then look at his 500whp on a dynojet statements. It took me nipping at his ankles before he reminded everyone of just how extensively his RS has been modified.
Also, have you seen Evom member Creamo3's signature? https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/members/9726-creamo3.html
Are those dyno #'s from Al's tune with the 20g? That was on race fuel at 26psi.
More:
Originally Posted by Smogrunner
I'm going to make some predictions:
1. The Buschur dyno controversies will go on for a long time for good reason. I personally think DBs dyno reads pretty much the same as the Gruppe-S and the Full Function Mustang dynos in california.
2. Typical good drivers (Warrtalon, Ivan_C, Matt55, etc) with perfectly tuned BR Stage 4s w/20g 9's will do no better than 121mph in the 1/4 on race gas and will typically run 118 mph on race gas. But that is about 3 mph better than the typical stock turbo cars, so that is not bad at all.
By the way, one of the best amatuer drag racers on this board dynoed 364whp on DB's dyno and managed a best trap speed of 117.6 at 11.79.
1. The Buschur dyno controversies will go on for a long time for good reason. I personally think DBs dyno reads pretty much the same as the Gruppe-S and the Full Function Mustang dynos in california.
2. Typical good drivers (Warrtalon, Ivan_C, Matt55, etc) with perfectly tuned BR Stage 4s w/20g 9's will do no better than 121mph in the 1/4 on race gas and will typically run 118 mph on race gas. But that is about 3 mph better than the typical stock turbo cars, so that is not bad at all.
By the way, one of the best amatuer drag racers on this board dynoed 364whp on DB's dyno and managed a best trap speed of 117.6 at 11.79.
Only thing I can really add to it, is I dynoed when it was flat 70 degrees. My best time came when it was 90-91 and a good amount of humidity. Though I think the largest part of the mph and et difference is weight. My car weighed in at 3328, race ready with me in it, on Englishtown's scales. I think some people forget that weight has a very large roll in performance.
I don't know how a TME, 10.5, 9 or 20g9 turbos drive, but I can say the TME-WR I have is leaps and bounds better then the 9.8. It hits harder and pulls harder, 4th gear never lets go.
The whistle, well how many people have heard a 5 blade turbo? Do a pressure test and make sure you have no leaks. The boost leaks I had were very high pitch whines that started just before or at 0 vac/boost.
Ivan
Ted B: I think the JDM MR bov might be a problem for you. I had it on my old 03 Evo and I couldnt peak higher than 27 psi no matter what boost setting I had. I switched out to an HKS SSBOV which I knew could NOT leak. The boost immediately went to 34 psi. This was on race gas, so no worries. This was with the same boost controller setting.
I would reach a point where the car would make no more power, torque, or boost. I thought it was the turbo running out of steam, but it was the BOV leaking. Upon further diagnosis and rigging up a pressure test apparatus, I found the JDM MR bov (with about 5 k miles on it) was starting to open at as little as 21 psi. The stock valve I had would start cracking open at 19 psi. So you might be leaking of some boost there.... The WR-9 will make some serious torque with the boost up. I now run a Works GFB/bov, but the best buy for the money in my opinion is the Forge RS bov. I may be biased though, because I sell them now.
Brian
I would reach a point where the car would make no more power, torque, or boost. I thought it was the turbo running out of steam, but it was the BOV leaking. Upon further diagnosis and rigging up a pressure test apparatus, I found the JDM MR bov (with about 5 k miles on it) was starting to open at as little as 21 psi. The stock valve I had would start cracking open at 19 psi. So you might be leaking of some boost there.... The WR-9 will make some serious torque with the boost up. I now run a Works GFB/bov, but the best buy for the money in my opinion is the Forge RS bov. I may be biased though, because I sell them now.
Brian
Originally Posted by Ted B
The boost curve looks strange in the midrange, only because we turned down the boost when we found that increasing it further made no more torque. I still have no good explanation for that.
Originally Posted by TURBODAWG
I think the JDM MR bov might be a problem for you. I had it on my old 03 Evo and I couldnt peak higher than 27 psi no matter what boost setting I had. I switched out to an HKS SSBOV which I knew could NOT leak. The boost immediately went to 34 psi. This was on race gas, so no worries. This was with the same boost controller setting.
I would reach a point where the car would make no more power, torque, or boost. I thought it was the turbo running out of steam, but it was the BOV leaking. Upon further diagnosis and rigging up a pressure test apparatus, I found the JDM MR bov (with about 5 k miles on it) was starting to open at as little as 21 psi. The stock valve I had would start cracking open at 19 psi. So you might be leaking of some boost there.... The WR-9 will make some serious torque with the boost up. I now run a Works GFB/bov, but the best buy for the money in my opinion is the Forge RS bov. I may be biased though, because I sell them now.
Brian
I would reach a point where the car would make no more power, torque, or boost. I thought it was the turbo running out of steam, but it was the BOV leaking. Upon further diagnosis and rigging up a pressure test apparatus, I found the JDM MR bov (with about 5 k miles on it) was starting to open at as little as 21 psi. The stock valve I had would start cracking open at 19 psi. So you might be leaking of some boost there.... The WR-9 will make some serious torque with the boost up. I now run a Works GFB/bov, but the best buy for the money in my opinion is the Forge RS bov. I may be biased though, because I sell them now.
Brian
That is another reason to pressure test the system.
Ivan
My BOV is a Forge adjustable unit (signature now updated), and therefore is a non-issue . . especially since I had it tightened almost to the limit for the session.
The only differences in the dyno charts (other than the obvious) is the fact that the 20G-9 setup has a Forge adjustable BOV and an HKS DLI II.
Everything else is identical. Methanol was used for both runs.
The only differences in the dyno charts (other than the obvious) is the fact that the 20G-9 setup has a Forge adjustable BOV and an HKS DLI II.
Everything else is identical. Methanol was used for both runs.
Well the BOV is not the problem then. We didnt even have the Forge RS valve cranked down on the Evo 9 MR that we dynoed. It will hold all kinds of boost. I think it is only 5 tunes in from fully loose.
Brian
Brian
If you want to boggle your mind, pay special attention to the points on the chart at 4000 and 5000 rpm. Compare the boost and AFR at those two points with the power curves.
Fertile grounds for frustration, yes?
Fertile grounds for frustration, yes?
Evolved Member
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From: Del Monte Beach, Monterey, CA
What will happen next on Days of our Evos.. the drama!
Originally Posted by SuperHatch
You want the skinny on the IX and IX 20G situation? there were some threads in the main forum but they got closed/deleted before word got out.
The IX came out and people learned that it was going to be a bigger turbo than the VIIIs
Turbochargers.com and forcedperformance both wanted IX turbos from mitsu to do testing/sell/develop upgrades.
Turbochargers.com got the first few IX turbos in the states (<50, prob <20)
Turbochargers.com worked with Buschur to develop the 20G-IX (the original 20G-IX with 6 blades on the compressor wheel)
Buschur released the results, the crowd went wild, orders poured in.
turbochargers.com cold out of the few IXs they had, and were waiting for more.
forcedperformance beat them to the punch and got their hands on the next shipment first.
FP put their WR wheel in the IX...
DB had customers pounding down the door and was getting impatient with turbochargers.com not being able to get him the turbos he wanted to sell.
FP calls DB and says they've got a turbo for him to try...
DB tests the WR-IX and says it's just as good as his 20G-IX
DB starts selling the WR-IX as a 20G-IX without telling his customers.
Someone picks up on the difference (6 blades vrs. 5) and calls dave out on it, dave explains his story and is honest with his customers.
Turbochargers.com gets in their shipment of turbos finally, but DB is selling FP turbos now.
turbochargers.com is pissed at DB for being impatient and is selling their IX and 20G-IX turbos cheap to undercut dave's sales.
The End... nice story, right?
Now lets see how long until this thread gets closed/deleted
The IX came out and people learned that it was going to be a bigger turbo than the VIIIs
Turbochargers.com and forcedperformance both wanted IX turbos from mitsu to do testing/sell/develop upgrades.
Turbochargers.com got the first few IX turbos in the states (<50, prob <20)
Turbochargers.com worked with Buschur to develop the 20G-IX (the original 20G-IX with 6 blades on the compressor wheel)
Buschur released the results, the crowd went wild, orders poured in.
turbochargers.com cold out of the few IXs they had, and were waiting for more.
forcedperformance beat them to the punch and got their hands on the next shipment first.
FP put their WR wheel in the IX...
DB had customers pounding down the door and was getting impatient with turbochargers.com not being able to get him the turbos he wanted to sell.
FP calls DB and says they've got a turbo for him to try...
DB tests the WR-IX and says it's just as good as his 20G-IX
DB starts selling the WR-IX as a 20G-IX without telling his customers.
Someone picks up on the difference (6 blades vrs. 5) and calls dave out on it, dave explains his story and is honest with his customers.
Turbochargers.com gets in their shipment of turbos finally, but DB is selling FP turbos now.
turbochargers.com is pissed at DB for being impatient and is selling their IX and 20G-IX turbos cheap to undercut dave's sales.
The End... nice story, right?
Now lets see how long until this thread gets closed/deleted
Originally Posted by IE Evo
Prophet Smoggy in action.
Links:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ne...eply&p=2719058
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ne...eply&p=2718898
Actually, IMHO, Dave more often blows expectations out of proportion and backs off less often. Just read the couple of threads where he continually repeats 20g 8 at 328whp = 124mph. Then look at his 500whp on a dynojet statements. It took me nipping at his ankles before he reminded everyone of just how extensively his RS has been modified.
Also, have you seen Evom member Creamo3's signature? https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/members/9726-creamo3.html
Are those dyno #'s from Al's tune with the 20g? That was on race fuel at 26psi.
Links:
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ne...eply&p=2719058
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ne...eply&p=2718898
Actually, IMHO, Dave more often blows expectations out of proportion and backs off less often. Just read the couple of threads where he continually repeats 20g 8 at 328whp = 124mph. Then look at his 500whp on a dynojet statements. It took me nipping at his ankles before he reminded everyone of just how extensively his RS has been modified.
Also, have you seen Evom member Creamo3's signature? https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/members/9726-creamo3.html
Are those dyno #'s from Al's tune with the 20g? That was on race fuel at 26psi.
More:
Originally Posted by Smogrunner
I'm going to make some predictions:
1. The Buschur dyno controversies will go on for a long time for good reason. I personally think DBs dyno reads pretty much the same as the Gruppe-S and the Full Function Mustang dynos in california.
2. Typical good drivers (Warrtalon, Ivan_C, Matt55, etc) with perfectly tuned BR Stage 4s w/20g 9's will do no better than 121mph in the 1/4 on race gas and will typically run 118 mph on race gas. But that is about 3 mph better than the typical stock turbo cars, so that is not bad at all.
By the way, one of the best amatuer drag racers on this board dynoed 364whp on DB's dyno and managed a best trap speed of 117.6 at 11.79.
1. The Buschur dyno controversies will go on for a long time for good reason. I personally think DBs dyno reads pretty much the same as the Gruppe-S and the Full Function Mustang dynos in california.
2. Typical good drivers (Warrtalon, Ivan_C, Matt55, etc) with perfectly tuned BR Stage 4s w/20g 9's will do no better than 121mph in the 1/4 on race gas and will typically run 118 mph on race gas. But that is about 3 mph better than the typical stock turbo cars, so that is not bad at all.
By the way, one of the best amatuer drag racers on this board dynoed 364whp on DB's dyno and managed a best trap speed of 117.6 at 11.79.
I'm not sure why everyone is in such a big hurry to upgrade their turbo.
Personally all this hype about the 20G makes me laugh. I'm willing to bet that the "20G" isn't much better than the stock EVO9 turbo.
All these dyno's and such have tons and tons of inconsitant variables like alchy, race octanes, boost holding, different FMIC, even the tunes are different and we haven't even gotten into alt, weather, and temps.
As the fella a few posts up kinda stated, peak HP is nothing. The area under the curve is much more important. If you have peaky power whoopty shxt the car is gonna suck to drive.
I think the best bet at this point and time is to run the stock turbo ragged or at best pick up a used stock evo9 turbo and give that a try. Wait to see what all these yahoos actually TRAP at because plain and simple dyno numbers do not directly reflect performance where it matters most.
Lastly, I think its sad that vendors come to EVO-M and act like 3rd graders.
Personally all this hype about the 20G makes me laugh. I'm willing to bet that the "20G" isn't much better than the stock EVO9 turbo.
All these dyno's and such have tons and tons of inconsitant variables like alchy, race octanes, boost holding, different FMIC, even the tunes are different and we haven't even gotten into alt, weather, and temps.
As the fella a few posts up kinda stated, peak HP is nothing. The area under the curve is much more important. If you have peaky power whoopty shxt the car is gonna suck to drive.
I think the best bet at this point and time is to run the stock turbo ragged or at best pick up a used stock evo9 turbo and give that a try. Wait to see what all these yahoos actually TRAP at because plain and simple dyno numbers do not directly reflect performance where it matters most.
Lastly, I think its sad that vendors come to EVO-M and act like 3rd graders.
Last edited by Jeff_Jeske; Mar 2, 2006 at 10:39 AM.
I can tell you this. I have never heard of a stock clutch going out at ~1000 miles, that has NEVER been launched. The car we tuned in the link above is making some serious torque. We just installed an RPS Carbon Carbon clutch in it, because the stock clutch couldnt hold the torque. When we left the dyno it was slipping in 6th gear. A few hundred miles later and it wont hold in any gear. If you look at the dyno sheet in the link I posted before you can see the nice area under the curve.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...torque+monster
Brian
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...torque+monster
Brian
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Joined: Jan 2006
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From: Danville
Originally Posted by Ted B
If you want to boggle your mind, pay special attention to the points on the chart at 4000 and 5000 rpm. Compare the boost and AFR at those two points with the power curves.
Fertile grounds for frustration, yes?
Fertile grounds for frustration, yes?
Shiv, on sean's computer.
Last edited by Sean@Vishnu; Mar 2, 2006 at 10:54 AM.
Ted I went over your charts and have seen something similar before with a clipped wheeled turbo. Basically it looks like the comp. map is being forced to the right of the powerband (relying on increased exhaust flow) except that there isnt much comp. efficiency left and the system equalizes were the wheel doesnt move enough cold air in turn not supplying enough energy to spin the exhaust side due to the fact that clipped wheel has reached an equalibrium.
Now I honestly dont know if your turbo is even clipped it could just be a difference in wheel matching. It goes against common thought and practice but has anyone thought of swapping a 10.5 for a 9.8 on this 20g just to see if this is a better match to the gas velocity? IIRC a 9.8 housing is more along the lines of the old single inlets of the original DSM turbo that guys loved.
Now I honestly dont know if your turbo is even clipped it could just be a difference in wheel matching. It goes against common thought and practice but has anyone thought of swapping a 10.5 for a 9.8 on this 20g just to see if this is a better match to the gas velocity? IIRC a 9.8 housing is more along the lines of the old single inlets of the original DSM turbo that guys loved.