Isn't That Lean?

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Aug 8, 2006 | 12:17 AM

#256

RazorLab

EvoM Guru

iTrader: (8)

Joined: Aug 2003

Posts: 14,092

Likes: 1,090

From: Mid-Hudson, NY

Really depends on when he went WOT. Also 23psi for 400rpm isn't much of concern, but those AFRS are.

At least from what I could unscramble from that Matrix recreation.

Aug 8, 2006 | 12:20 AM

#257

Spec'd

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From: Southern California

That pull was an off the shelf 91 map on a cool night.

I've since added about a point of fuel.

.

Aug 8, 2006 | 05:49 AM

#258

jrsimon27

Evolved Member

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Joined: Apr 2005

Posts: 2,574

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From: C.A Honduras!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spec'd

Might it be possible that Shiv is retarding the timing a bit as to
compensate for the leaner a/f ratios ?

Here's something scary from a 91 base map.
FIRST_LOG SATURDAY 08-05-06 3:00 am

Time,AFR,AFR Lambda,EGT,RPM,Boost
00:01.00,12.9,0.0,744.0,3418.0,6.3
00:01.02,12.9,0.0,746.0,3418.0,6.5
00:01.04,12.9,0.0,746.0,3428.0,6.8
00:01.07,12.9,0.0,747.0,3438.0,7.1
00:01.09,12.9,0.0,748.0,3438.0,7.4
00:01.11,12.9,0.0,749.0,3449.0,7.9
00:01.13,13.0,0.0,750.0,3459.0,8.1
00:01.15,12.9,0.0,750.0,3459.0,8.4
00:01.18,12.9,0.0,752.0,3480.0,8.7
00:01.20,12.9,0.0,753.0,3490.0,9.0
00:01.22,12.9,0.0,754.0,3501.0,9.5
00:01.25,12.9,0.0,756.0,3512.0,9.7
00:01.26,12.8,0.0,758.0,3522.0,10.3
00:01.26,12.8,0.0,758.0,3533.0,10.5
00:01.29,12.8,0.0,760.0,3555.0,11.0
00:01.33,12.8,0.0,761.0,3566.0,11.4
00:01.35,12.7,0.0,762.0,3566.0,11.8
00:01.37,12.7,0.0,765.0,3566.0,12.2
00:01.39,12.7,0.0,766.0,3600.0,12.8
00:01.41,12.6,0.0,768.0,3622.0,13.0
00:01.45,12.6,0.0,769.0,3622.0,13.6
00:01.45,12.6,0.0,772.0,3634.0,13.9
00:01.47,12.6,0.0,773.0,3645.0,14.5
00:01.49,12.6,0.0,774.0,3645.0,14.8
00:01.51,12.6,0.0,777.0,3645.0,15.3
00:01.52,12.5,0.0,778.0,3668.0,15.8
00:01.55,12.4,0.0,779.0,3704.0,16.2
00:01.58,12.4,0.0,781.0,3728.0,16.7
00:01.58,12.4,0.0,782.0,3728.0,17.0
00:01.62,12.3,0.0,784.0,3752.0,17.6
00:01.65,12.3,0.0,786.0,3752.0,18.1
00:01.66,12.3,0.0,787.0,3752.0,18.4
00:01.68,12.3,0.0,788.0,3764.0,19.0
00:01.70,12.3,0.0,790.0,3789.0,19.4
00:01.73,12.2,0.0,792.0,3801.0,19.7
00:01.76,12.2,0.0,793.0,3827.0,20.2
00:01.76,12.2,0.0,794.0,3840.0,20.6
00:01.79,12.1,0.0,797.0,3840.0,20.8
00:01.80,12.1,0.0,798.0,3865.0,21.3
00:01.82,12.0,0.0,799.0,3878.0,21.6
00:01.87,11.9,0.0,801.0,3905.0,21.8
00:01.87,11.9,0.0,803.0,3931.0,22.0
00:01.90,11.9,0.0,804.0,3945.0,22.2
00:01.92,11.9,0.0,806.0,3972.0,22.5
00:01.95,11.9,0.0,807.0,3972.0,22.7
00:01.95,11.9,0.0,809.0,3972.0,22.5
00:01.97,11.9,0.0,810.0,4000.0,22.7
00:01.99,11.9,0.0,811.0,4013.0,23.0
00:02.00,11.9,0.0,812.0,4042.0,23.1
00:02.03,11.9,0.0,813.0,4042.0,23.1
00:02.04,11.9,0.0,815.0,4085.0,23.0
00:02.06,12.0,0.0,817.0,4099.0,23.1
00:02.09,12.0,0.0,818.0,4114.0,23.1
00:02.11,12.0,0.0,819.0,4129.0,23.3
00:02.15,12.0,0.0,822.0,4143.0,23.5
00:02.17,12.0,0.0,823.0,4158.0,23.6
00:02.19,12.1,0.0,824.0,4173.0,23.4
00:02.23,12.2,0.0,825.0,4189.0,23.5
00:02.23,12.2,0.0,826.0,4189.0,23.4
00:02.25,12.2,0.0,829.0,4219.0,23.3
00:02.26,12.2,0.0,830.0,4235.0,23.2
00:02.29,12.2,0.0,831.0,4250.0,23.2
00:02.30,12.2,0.0,832.0,4266.0,23.1
00:02.33,12.2,0.0,834.0,4298.0,23.1
00:02.34,12.2,0.0,835.0,4298.0,23.0
00:02.36,12.2,0.0,836.0,4330.0,23.0
00:02.38,12.2,0.0,838.0,4347.0,23.0
00:02.41,12.3,0.0,838.0,4347.0,23.0
00:02.43,12.3,0.0,839.0,4363.0,22.8
00:02.45,12.3,0.0,841.0,4396.0,22.7
00:02.48,12.4,0.0,842.0,4396.0,22.7
00:02.49,12.4,0.0,842.0,4430.0,22.7
00:02.51,12.4,0.0,843.0,4447.0,22.3
00:02.53,12.4,0.0,844.0,4447.0,22.2
00:02.55,12.4,0.0,845.0,4465.0,22.2
00:02.57,12.4,0.0,847.0,4482.0,22.3
00:02.59,12.4,0.0,849.0,4500.0,22.3
00:02.61,12.5,0.0,849.0,4517.0,22.2
00:02.65,12.5,0.0,850.0,4535.0,22.2
00:02.66,12.5,0.0,851.0,4553.0,22.1
00:02.69,12.6,0.0,853.0,4571.0,22.3
00:02.72,12.6,0.0,854.0,4589.0,22.3
00:02.74,12.6,0.0,855.0,4608.0,22.0
00:02.76,12.7,0.0,856.0,4626.0,22.0
00:02.79,12.7,0.0,858.0,4645.0,22.1
00:02.80,12.7,0.0,860.0,4663.0,22.0
00:02.82,12.7,0.0,861.0,4663.0,21.8
00:02.82,12.7,0.0,863.0,4682.0,21.8
00:02.86,12.7,0.0,864.0,4702.0,21.6
00:02.88,12.7,0.0,866.0,4702.0,21.5
00:02.90,12.7,0.0,867.0,4721.0,21.6
00:02.92,12.7,0.0,867.0,4760.0,21.5
00:02.94,12.7,0.0,868.0,4760.0,21.4
00:02.96,12.7,0.0,869.0,4800.0,21.4
00:02.98,12.7,0.0,870.0,4800.0,21.3
00:03.00,12.7,0.0,872.0,4820.0,21.2
00:03.02,12.7,0.0,872.0,4840.0,21.2
00:03.04,12.7,0.0,873.0,4840.0,21.3
00:03.06,12.7,0.0,873.0,4881.0,21.3
00:03.08,12.7,0.0,874.0,4881.0,21.3
00:03.10,12.7,0.0,875.0,4902.0,21.2
00:03.13,12.7,0.0,876.0,4902.0,21.2
00:03.15,12.7,0.0,876.0,4923.0,21.1
00:03.18,12.7,0.0,877.0,4965.0,21.1
00:03.20,12.7,0.0,879.0,4965.0,21.1
00:03.22,12.7,0.0,880.0,4965.0,21.1
00:03.24,12.7,0.0,880.0,4987.0,21.1
00:03.26,12.7,0.0,881.0,4987.0,21.2
00:03.27,12.7,0.0,881.0,5008.0,20.9
00:03.29,12.7,0.0,882.0,5052.0,20.9
00:03.32,12.7,0.0,883.0,5074.0,20.9
00:03.34,12.8,0.0,883.0,5074.0,20.8
00:03.36,12.7,0.0,885.0,5074.0,20.8
00:03.38,12.7,0.0,886.0,5097.0,20.8
00:03.41,12.7,0.0,886.0,5097.0,20.8
00:03.43,12.7,0.0,886.0,5120.0,20.8
00:03.45,12.7,0.0,887.0,5142.0,20.8
00:03.48,12.7,0.0,887.0,5165.0,20.9
00:03.50,12.7,0.0,888.0,5189.0,20.8
00:03.52,12.7,0.0,888.0,5212.0,20.6
00:03.53,12.7,0.0,888.0,5212.0,20.6
00:03.55,12.7,0.0,889.0,5212.0,20.7
00:03.57,12.7,0.0,891.0,5236.0,20.6
00:03.61,12.7,0.0,891.0,5260.0,20.5
00:03.63,12.7,0.0,891.0,5284.0,20.5
00:03.65,12.7,0.0,892.0,5308.0,20.5
00:03.67,12.7,0.0,893.0,5308.0,20.4
00:03.69,12.7,0.0,894.0,5308.0,20.5
00:03.71,12.7,0.0,895.0,5333.0,20.5
00:03.73,12.7,0.0,896.0,5333.0,20.5
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,896.0,5333.0,20.5
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,899.0,5358.0,20.5
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,899.0,5383.0,20.5
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,900.0,5408.0,20.5
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,901.0,5433.0,20.6
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,902.0,5433.0,20.6
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,904.0,5459.0,20.7
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,906.0,5459.0,20.8
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,907.0,5485.0,20.6
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,908.0,5485.0,20.6
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,910.0,5511.0,20.6
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,911.0,5511.0,20.5
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,912.0,5511.0,20.5
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,913.0,5538.0,20.4
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,915.0,5565.0,20.3
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,915.0,5565.0,20.3
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,917.0,5592.0,20.3
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,918.0,5592.0,20.2
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,918.0,5619.0,20.1
00:04.26,12.8,0.0,918.0,5647.0,20.0
00:04.26,12.7,0.0,919.0,5619.0,19.8
00:04.26,12.7,0.0,920.0,5647.0,19.7
00:04.26,12.7,0.0,921.0,5647.0,19.6
00:04.26,12.7,0.0,921.0,5674.0,19.5
00:04.28,12.6,0.0,921.0,5702.0,19.4
00:04.28,12.6,0.0,921.0,5702.0,19.3
00:04.32,12.6,0.0,921.0,5731.0,19.2
00:04.34,12.6,0.0,923.0,5731.0,19.2
00:04.34,12.6,0.0,923.0,5760.0,19.2
00:04.36,12.6,0.0,924.0,5788.0,19.2
00:04.38,12.6,0.0,924.0,5788.0,19.1
00:04.42,12.6,0.0,924.0,5788.0,19.1
00:04.44,12.6,0.0,925.0,5788.0,19.1
00:04.46,12.6,0.0,925.0,5818.0,19.1
00:04.48,12.6,0.0,926.0,5818.0,19.2
00:04.50,12.7,0.0,927.0,5877.0,19.3
00:04.52,12.7,0.0,927.0,5877.0,19.4
00:04.53,12.7,0.0,929.0,5877.0,19.4
00:04.57,12.7,0.0,929.0,5877.0,19.4
00:04.59,12.7,0.0,930.0,5907.0,19.4
00:04.61,12.8,0.0,930.0,5907.0,19.4
00:04.63,12.8,0.0,931.0,5938.0,19.4
00:04.65,12.8,0.0,931.0,5968.0,19.4
00:04.67,12.8,0.0,931.0,6000.0,19.5
00:04.69,12.8,0.0,932.0,6000.0,19.5
00:04.72,12.7,0.0,932.0,5968.0,19.5
00:04.73,12.7,0.0,932.0,6000.0,19.5
00:04.76,12.7,0.0,932.0,6000.0,19.6
00:04.77,12.7,0.0,933.0,6031.0,19.8
00:04.80,12.7,0.0,934.0,6063.0,19.8
00:04.82,12.7,0.0,934.0,6063.0,19.8
00:04.84,12.7,0.0,934.0,6063.0,19.9
00:04.86,12.7,0.0,934.0,6095.0,20.0
00:04.88,12.7,0.0,936.0,6127.0,20.0
00:04.90,12.8,0.0,937.0,6095.0,20.0
00:04.92,12.8,0.0,938.0,6127.0,20.0
00:04.94,12.8,0.0,938.0,6095.0,20.1
00:04.97,12.9,0.0,939.0,6127.0,20.0
00:05.00,12.9,0.0,939.0,6160.0,20.0
00:05.01,12.8,0.0,940.0,6160.0,20.1
00:05.03,12.8,0.0,940.0,6193.0,20.0
00:05.05,12.8,0.0,940.0,6193.0,19.9
00:05.07,12.9,0.0,942.0,6227.0,19.8
00:05.11,12.9,0.0,943.0,6227.0,19.8
00:05.11,12.9,0.0,943.0,6227.0,19.7
00:05.13,12.9,0.0,944.0,6260.0,19.8
00:05.17,12.9,0.0,944.0,6260.0,19.7
00:05.19,12.9,0.0,945.0,6295.0,19.7
00:05.21,12.9,0.0,945.0,6295.0,19.7
00:05.23,12.9,0.0,946.0,6295.0,19.5
00:05.25,12.9,0.0,948.0,6295.0,19.4
00:05.26,12.9,0.0,949.0,6329.0,19.4
00:05.28,13.0,0.0,950.0,6364.0,19.2
00:05.32,13.0,0.0,950.0,6329.0,19.2
00:05.34,13.0,0.0,950.0,6400.0,19.2
00:05.36,12.9,0.0,951.0,6400.0,19.3
00:05.38,12.9,0.0,951.0,6400.0,19.2
00:05.40,12.9,0.0,951.0,6435.0,19.1
00:05.42,12.9,0.0,951.0,6435.0,19.1
00:05.44,12.9,0.0,952.0,6435.0,19.1
00:05.46,12.9,0.0,953.0,6435.0,19.2
00:05.48,13.0,0.0,955.0,6471.0,19.3
00:05.52,13.0,0.0,957.0,6471.0,19.4
00:05.53,13.0,0.0,958.0,6508.0,19.4
00:05.55,13.0,0.0,959.0,6508.0,19.4
00:05.57,13.0,0.0,961.0,6508.0,19.4
00:05.59,13.0,0.0,962.0,6508.0,19.5
00:05.61,13.0,0.0,963.0,6545.0,19.5
00:05.63,13.1,0.0,964.0,6545.0,19.7
00:05.65,13.1,0.0,964.0,6545.0,19.5
00:05.67,13.1,0.0,965.0,6582.0,19.5
00:05.69,13.1,0.0,968.0,6582.0,19.5
00:05.72,13.0,0.0,968.0,6582.0,19.6
00:05.75,13.0,0.0,969.0,6620.0,19.6
00:05.77,13.0,0.0,970.0,6620.0,19.6
00:05.79,13.0,0.0,971.0,6658.0,19.5
00:05.80,13.0,0.0,971.0,6658.0,19.4
00:05.82,13.0,0.0,971.0,6658.0,19.5
00:05.84,13.0,0.0,972.0,6658.0,19.4
00:05.86,13.0,0.0,972.0,6658.0,19.1
00:05.88,13.0,0.0,972.0,6658.0,17.3
00:05.92,13.0,0.0,971.0,6471.0,14.3
00:05.94,12.9,0.0,968.0,6329.0,11.5
00:05.97,12.7,0.0,962.0,6295.0,9.1
00:06.00,12.4,0.0,955.0,6364.0,6.9
00:06.03,12.3,0.0,948.0,6545.0,4.9
00:06.03,12.5,0.0,944.0,6816.0,3.1
00:06.05,12.9,0.0,939.0,6816.0,1.4
00:06.09,13.1,0.0,933.0,6816.0,0.0
00:06.11,13.0,0.0,927.0,6776.0,-2.9

wow friend you are very lean was this a 3erd gear pull???

Aug 8, 2006 | 06:41 AM

#259

nj1266

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Evolved Member

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From: USA

jrs,

Could you please edit your post and remove the long quote? I put Spec'd data in an Excel graph to make it easier to see.

Attached Thumbnails

Aug 8, 2006 | 06:44 AM

#260

nj1266

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From: USA

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spec'd

That pull was an off the shelf 91 map on a cool night.

I've since added about a point of fuel.

.

Did you back off the boost a bit? Your hitting 23.6 and only tapering to 19 by redline. That MIGHT be too high on 91 pisstane gas.

Aug 8, 2006 | 07:44 AM

#261

Jeff_Jeske

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From: On the track

At 13:1 AFR you are killing your motor.

Aug 8, 2006 | 09:42 AM

#262

Spec'd

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From: Southern California

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_Jeske

At 13:1 AFR you are killing your motor.

I know and I've learned that it's the responsibility of each Evo owner to
monitor and fine tune thier own cars. Just because it's off the shelf doesn't
make it safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nj1266

Did you back off the boost a bit? Your hitting 23.6 and only tapering to 19 by redline. That MIGHT be too high on 91 pisstane gas.

I love pisstane gas.

But seriously, I turned the boost down and enrichend
the mixture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nj1266

I put Spec'd data in an Excel graph to make it easier to see.

That looks real good, I need to find my Excel disc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrsimon27

wow friend you are very lean was this a 3rd gear pull???

Yep it was a third gear pull with scary results.

Last edited by Spec'd; Aug 8, 2006 at 07:08 PM.

Aug 8, 2006 | 11:14 AM

#263

jrsimon27

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From: C.A Honduras!

specd was this the 05map or the 03 map for 91oct and for what kit??

Aug 8, 2006 | 06:14 PM

#264

Spec'd

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jrsimon27

specd was this the 05map or the 03 map for 91oct and for what kit??

It was a 91 Octane, 05 Map, V330+, Version 3.2.

Aug 8, 2006 | 06:33 PM

#265

Jeff_Jeske

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From: On the track

It doesn't matter what maps you download they are all very aggressive.

YOU NEED TO MONITOR YOUR OWN AFR WITH A WIDEBAND!!!

Aug 10, 2006 | 04:01 PM

#266

nj1266

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_Jeske

It doesn't matter what maps you download they are all very aggressive.

That is too general a statement. It depends on what you look at. If you look at the AFR by itself, then it does look too lean. But if you look at the timing and the boost, then the settings are tame compared to other tuners out there. I have now done enough logs to see the real timing and boost on the TBE maps.

Below is a table of five boost logs in 3rd gear. These are the boost logs before I changed. These are averages and not max and min. As you can see the boost is very tame. It is stock like boost.

I have also logged enough timing maps to tell that the timing is also tame compared to the timing that I have seen others post on the forums. Below is a typical timing map with the off-the-shelf maps.

I think it is possible with this retarded timing and the tame boost to run an AFR at 12:1. But you would need constant monitering and using all the protective features in the Xede.

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Aug 10, 2006 | 04:10 PM

#267

RazorLab

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From: Mid-Hudson, NY

You should be able to run more timing at 3600 rpm then that. With a very nice torque increase. Espically if your boost is only 20psi.

Aug 10, 2006 | 05:01 PM

#268

nj1266

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Quote:

Originally Posted by razorlab

You should be able to run more timing at 3600 rpm then that. With a very nice torque increase. Espically if your boost is only 20psi.

Ahhh...But that defeats the MTBT approach to tuning

The whole idea is to retard the timing, back down the boost, and run your AFR at close to optimum burn as possible.

Right now I have upped the boost on my car and I am peaking around 22-23 psi. But this is only because I am running 11.4-11.5:1 AFR. Once I get my EGT gauge installed and logging, I will back down the boost to a max of 21 psi at peak, lean the mix to 12:1 and make sure that the EGTs are around 850*C.

Aug 10, 2006 | 05:08 PM

#269

RazorLab

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From: Mid-Hudson, NY

Quote:

Originally Posted by nj1266

Right now I have upped the boost on my car and I am peaking around 22-23 psi. But this is only because I am running 11.4-11.5:1 AFR. Once I get my EGT gauge installed and logging, I will back down the boost to a max of 21 psi at peak, lean the mix to 12:1 and make sure that the EGTs are around 850*C.

The EGT isn't going to tell you anything about what's going on at torque peak. They don't react fast enough, it's mainly for tuning higher RPM and sustained WOT (track, top speed, etc)

EGT would have to react like a boost gauge to give you any information at torque peak.

I also think you will have a hard time with your EGT readings since you will be running alot less timing then everyone else to be able to run 12:1 which could be raising your EGT's.

If I where you and really wanted to do the 12:1 tune, I would do it on a dyno with det cans.

Aug 10, 2006 | 05:43 PM

#270

TTP Engineering

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From: Central FL

Anyone that makes claims that an AFR and timing is safe and compares it to others internet posted logs is an idiot.

Anyone that does not use the $15 Evoscan program to log actual ECU reported knock counts at a blazing sample rate is pissing in the wind. My .02c to the supertuners.

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