jrs,

Your numbers are OBD2 numbers. They are NOT the real timing numbers. You must correct your OBD2 numbers to get the real xede adjusted timing numbers. I used to think that the OBD2 numbers are the correct numbers until Jorge T and Shiv corrected us on this.

The numbers on my charts are the OBD2 numbers AND the corrected real timing numbers.

 

I have been thinking about what you said and how I tune on the street. It dawned upon me that perhaps it is the ZT software that is holding you back in your tuning efforts. Let me elaborate. I usually do three logs or more before I do a change to my AFR. I try to do the logs at the same place/time, but sometimes I vary that so I can get different feedback.

Then I fire up Logworks and create a compilation of all three or more logs on one table. I look at the table with the rpm on one axis and the psi on the other axis and AFR in the cells. I look at average, max, min, and number of data points. Here is an example:



In the above table I circled the areas that are too leans for my taste, ie, 5K, 6.5K and 7K. I open up Xmap and add a fraction of a percent in these rpm points to make thing richer. My aim is to richen these points just at or below 11.5:1 and at 7K to taper to around 11.3:1.

I load up the map in the Xede and do another set of runs and view the results to see if the changes I did helped. Take a look at what I got:



In the 5K rpm point the AFR fell from 11.58-11.61 to 11.51. In the 6.5K point the AFR fell from 11.54 to 11.43-11.52 and in the 7k point it dropped from 11.44-11.46 to 11.28-11.33. Basically the change that I made to the Xede fuel map produced the desired result.

I do not know if the ZT can produce these compiled tables, but if it does, then that is the way to go about tuning. In my case it has produced good results.

 

I am too skittish to add timing up top. I am pretty sure that the car is not knocking up top and I can add timing, but I am not certain. The knock buffer does not seem to be spiking. I will have the Tactrix cable soon and I downloaded Evoscan. I will log knock sum and timing. If the knock sum is contained, then I will feel better about adding timing up top. Right now I will leave the timing where Shiv put it.

 

Oh so the guy that claimed Innovate's best advantage was the fact that the 6.5lb box could log AFR without the need for a laptop is now going to be using a laptop and evoscan to actually attempt to tune the car.

Guess you won't be claiming the big brick of an LM1 is an advantage anymore since you will need both laptop and the 6.5lb unit to tune with.

 

Had you paid attention to what had happened in this thread you would not be making that statement. I discovered that with the Xede it is not possible to get the real timing from the OBD2 port. You MUST log a Timing Shift Output (TSO) parameter from the Xede to determine the timing. To log TSO, you MUST use your lap top. There is no other way.

Since I MUST to use my laptop to get my timing, then I might as well get the Evoscan and Tactrix cable.

I have no other option but to use my laptop.

This is about LOGGING TIMING. I cannot do that w/o a lap top.

The Innovate has nothing to do with this. The advantage of the LM-1 is still the ability to log 44 min w/o a laptop.

Why don't you respond to post 287 above and tell Spec'd if ZT can make AFR tables from MANY AFR logs??

 

Maybe the Zeitronix is the correct AFR after all and it's the inaccurate Innovate unit that gives a varying and incorrect reading requiring multiple passes and overlapping logs and such. Or maybe you need to "free air re-calibrate" the innovate sensor a few more times to get it right.

ZEITRONIX does not require this as it is self calibrating.

ZEITRONIX vs. INNOVATE ACCURACY TESTING - Click HERE!

Zeitronix logs TPS, RPM, LAMBDA, AFR, out of the box on the most basic $279 of packages and is only 4-5 ounces and the size of a business card for easy discrete mounting.

Since nj1266 will need his laptop to use Evoscan, it would be most convenient to plug in the ZEITRONIX to the serial output, open ecuflash and use evoscan all at the same time on the laptop. Personally I can run the AEM or MAFTPro program at the same time as well.

While you are wasting your time moving an AFR point 0.10 in a specific RPM point without logging knock counts via the ECU, others are adjusting something that will actually make a difference in power, like ignition timing.

I look forward to watching you blossom into being able to tune your car successfully as you learn. Good Luck.

Make sure you keep a good stock of batteries on hand for the 6.5lb LM1 and keep your tuning sessions limited to 44 minutes or less. After that, you can drive home, pop in a fresh set of batteries, upload the LM1 log to your laptop so you can start your next session, then go on back out for the next 44 min.

ZEITRONIX will be busy logging up to 9 hours of data in a single session at a blazing rate of 74 samples per second per parameter of AFR, LAMBDA, RPM, TPS, BOOST (using medical grade precision AEM 3.5bar kavlico sensor) and an Auxiliary 0-5v user input.

Hell the zeitronix could log a whole week of custom tunes straight

 

nj the number i posted was the corrected number cause the obd2 log gave me 26* so i subtracted the number on the xede chart and i got the 22* but thanks

 

Spec'd said in his post that he got different results and he could not tune that way.

Had he been able to compile multiple logs in one two dimentional table, then he might have been able to view the avg, max, min, std dev like Logworks allows you to do. It make tuning easier since you do not have to rely on ONLY one log to tune.

Your diatribe about accuracy and blah blah blah does not help Spec'd one bit. He already said that he was getting different results.

Since you sold him the ZT, you can at least tell him if the software allows him to compile multiple AFR logs so he can get an accurate AFR.

 

There is no need to log multiple times and overlay graphs. That is stupid.

If he hit the low octane maps you would be averaging an AFR based on 2 maps which is ridiculous.

The AFR does not vary unless you are knocking and hitting low octane maps or different load cells. Accelleration enrichment tables, intake air temp, coolant temps all play a part in the AFR.

 

It is amazing to me how you custom tailor your tuning habits to the deficincies of the ZT software.

So now ONLY ONE log is needed to tune your AFR. So all those people who tell you to do THREE logs so you can get an accurate AFR are all wrong. Can I quote you on this TTP?

Well apparently Spec'd AFR is VARYING. I do not know if he is knocking or getting timing pulled or not. What I know is his ZT unit is not giving him consistent readings like you claim it does. Truth is there will always be a slight variation in the AFR and that is why you do multiple logs and avg them. But not according to you. AFRs do not change, they are set in stone.

So your answer is, the ZT software cannot do it and so Spec'd is SOL and he can only rely on one log and cannot overlay multiple logs so he can fine tune his AFR.

 

nj I bought the ZT2 from Road Race Engineering. It was my choice.
I have no regrets at all. Once I can get on a dyno or find a safer
more stable running enviroment, it will be much easier.

It's my believe that the Zeitronics is doing it's job very accurately, maybe
to accurate. It's not the instrument, it's the person running it... " Me ".

I might sign up for a tunning session with Shiv at TT. Or drive to Shiv's
shop and have him do it on his Dyno Dynamics dyno.

Either way, With Shiv's tuning ...
I will be able to compare logs with my logging equipment
vs. logs with thier equipment ... from the same tuning session

 

Tuning? You are tuning?

Too scared to adjust timing but you are tuning? All this time I thought you were researching information from people that could actually tune so when you actually get a clue, you could make some adjustments with the XEDE.

You are contradicting yourself, but if it makes you feel like you have a point, keep on rambling on. "I do not know if he is knocking" You do not know what load cells he is hitting, what octane map he is on or if he is knocking and pulling timing which all affect AFR. You know very little, not just regarding tuning.

You make a pull, you tune, you make a pull, you tune. Thats how a normal person does it. For whatever reason, you choose to waste your time logging the same kind of pull multiple times and obsess over AFR averages. Your first adjustment to fueling and none of those pulls even make a difference. I've said it before and I will say it again. Tuning without logging ECU knock counts is moronic as you can get off on AFR's all you want and claim wideband variances, when actually you have 1-36 counts of knock that change the AFR, not the sensor.

 

Why do you keep moving the debate pole? The issue is this: Can the ZT software allow the use to overlay more than TWO logs so the person can have an idea of before and after AFR?

Now answer the god-damned question and stop skirting the issue?

The issue is not my tuning ability of my willingness to adjust the timing or not. Let me repeat the question:

Can the ZT software allow the user to overlay more than two logs so the person can have an idea of before and after AFR?

 

It does not need to because there is no reason or benefit in doing so, just like there is no reason to make 3 pulls in one gear and do a stupid, worthless average without knowing the state of parameters that actually matter, like knock counts. That is just retarded.



Oh and BTW, God, has nothing to do with the question, nor has he damned it.

 

Says you. Just because ZT does not do it, does not mean that it is not neccessary. I bet if the ZT software had such a feature, you would be hailing it as the best thin g since sliced bread

And one more time GOD DAMN IT