TTP-Engineering Tunes the 2009 Ralliart 4b11
The issue is YOU thinking your answer is the only one that matters. Let me say this again: 237 claimed crank horsepower does not equal 220 proven whp. Therefore it is UNDERRATED. So RobevoRS posts a 0-60 time of 6.6, yet you fail to say anything about that. Its the worst # possible obtained by anyone, yet you just agree with it because it supports your argument. Unbelieveable.
I thought I made myself pretty clear that I think it would be unfair to compare the evo to the SS. My point is that I find the comparison of the R/A, and SS equally unfair. From my perspective, they're totally different cars. So, how can you compare totally different cars? You can't. If you try, it's strictly opinion, or subjective.
I'm not missing any factors regarding the drivetrain. That's a FACT. Sorry if it offends you, but you either lack knowledge in the involved mechanical principals, or you're just purposely trolling, amby.
You restated what I already did regarding the diffs. Yes, the evo has different front and rear diffs than the R/A. The difference however, will be totally negligible on a dyno. In fact, since the evo doesn't use traditional mechanical limited slips, there is a good possibility that the diffs in the evo have less mass than the ones in the R/A, so in reality, the evo might have slightly less drivetrain loss. But again, the difference would certainly be unnoticeable.
Remember, differentials are practically passive unless their is either a difference in grip between opposing wheels, or if they're rotating at different speeds - both conditions that do not occur on a dyno.
Also, I won't stand behind any claim of the R/A being underrated compared to an evo. Though, I will support that it IS A POSSIBILITY. Whether it makes sense or not. I believe back in the 70s, chrysler had a motor that was spec'd at 400-some-odd horsepower. When that motor was taken to an independent dyno shop, they found that it made power more in the neighborhood for 800HP! Why would they say it only made 400? You can ponder on that a bit.
I'm not missing any factors regarding the drivetrain. That's a FACT. Sorry if it offends you, but you either lack knowledge in the involved mechanical principals, or you're just purposely trolling, amby.
You restated what I already did regarding the diffs. Yes, the evo has different front and rear diffs than the R/A. The difference however, will be totally negligible on a dyno. In fact, since the evo doesn't use traditional mechanical limited slips, there is a good possibility that the diffs in the evo have less mass than the ones in the R/A, so in reality, the evo might have slightly less drivetrain loss. But again, the difference would certainly be unnoticeable.
Remember, differentials are practically passive unless their is either a difference in grip between opposing wheels, or if they're rotating at different speeds - both conditions that do not occur on a dyno.
Also, I won't stand behind any claim of the R/A being underrated compared to an evo. Though, I will support that it IS A POSSIBILITY. Whether it makes sense or not. I believe back in the 70s, chrysler had a motor that was spec'd at 400-some-odd horsepower. When that motor was taken to an independent dyno shop, they found that it made power more in the neighborhood for 800HP! Why would they say it only made 400? You can ponder on that a bit.
As for the rest, I and others have already responded to it.
We cannot compare the two dynos, they were made at completely different times. Again, the diffs are relevant because the power has to go through them before it hits the wheels.
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From: michigan
Are you trolling again?
You're seriously going to continue arguing this point after being told you were wrong by at least 3 separate people? How are the diffs not relevant? Does the power magically avoid them? The whole idea of diffs works on friction, why do you think AWD cars always dyno significantly less than their similarly powered FWD or RWD counterparts? As for the rest, yes, I've been a member for 5 years, I have over 10000 posts and I'm a moderator but yep, you got me, I'm a big old troll.
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From: michigan
You're seriously going to continue arguing this point after being told you were wrong by at least 3 separate people? How are the diffs not relevant? Does the power magically avoid them? The whole idea of diffs works on friction, why do you think AWD cars always dyno significantly less than their similarly powered FWD or RWD counterparts? As for the rest, yes, I've been a member for 5 years, I have over 10000 posts and I'm a moderator but yep, you got me, I'm a big old troll.
I would say your argument would have merit if they didn't have the same center diff, but they do.
It's better if you look at diffs as devices that maintaining traction either when one wheel is slipping, or when wheels opposite to each other a spinning at different rates (and therefore, in a sense, slipping). these are things that don't, or at least shouldn't occur on a dyno.
So again, unless one car has a diff from a quad, and the other from a tractor, losses due to the differences in mass, and friction will practically make no difference. It doesn't matter if the diffs are open-type, or s-awc type: not a dyno.
You apparently have poor mechanical aptitude. My intention isn't so much to prove you wrong, but rather enlighten you on your misunderstanding.
Just because I made a mistake on an unrelated issue, doesn't make everything I say wrong. Unlike you, though, I will admit when there is an error on my part.
Either a troll, or lack the ability to reason.
I would say your argument would have merit if they didn't have the same center diff, but they do.
It's better if you look at diffs as devices that maintaining traction either when one wheel is slipping, or when wheels opposite to each other a spinning at different rates (and therefore, in a sense, slipping). these are things that don't, or at least shouldn't occur on a dyno.
So again, unless one car has a diff from a quad, and the other from a tractor, losses due to the differences in mass, and friction will practically make no difference. It doesn't matter if the diffs are open-type, or s-awc type: not a dyno.
You apparently have poor mechanical aptitude. My intention isn't so much to prove you wrong, but rather enlighten you on your misunderstanding.
Just because I made a mistake on an unrelated issue, doesn't make everything I say wrong. Unlike you, though, I will admit when there is an error on my part.
I would say your argument would have merit if they didn't have the same center diff, but they do.
It's better if you look at diffs as devices that maintaining traction either when one wheel is slipping, or when wheels opposite to each other a spinning at different rates (and therefore, in a sense, slipping). these are things that don't, or at least shouldn't occur on a dyno.
So again, unless one car has a diff from a quad, and the other from a tractor, losses due to the differences in mass, and friction will practically make no difference. It doesn't matter if the diffs are open-type, or s-awc type: not a dyno.
You apparently have poor mechanical aptitude. My intention isn't so much to prove you wrong, but rather enlighten you on your misunderstanding.
Just because I made a mistake on an unrelated issue, doesn't make everything I say wrong. Unlike you, though, I will admit when there is an error on my part.
I am well aware of what diffs do but the major factor you are missing is that any and all engine power has to pass through the differentials before it hits the ground. Should we also dismiss the transmission in our discussion?
I freely admit when I make a mistake but in this case I am not. Moreover, I tend to listen a whole lot better when someone with more than 23 posts is talking, especially when that person hasn't even established themselves in a light other than someone who just jumps down my throat. If you came on and showed strong mechanical skills, I'd be all ears but given the last few posts, I'm not so inclined.
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From: michigan
Funny how you say I can't reason yet you've yet to provide a rational argument supporting your claim in the face of multiple objectors.
I am well aware of what diffs do but the major factor you are missing is that any and all engine power has to pass through the differentials before it hits the ground. Should we also dismiss the transmission in our discussion?
I freely admit when I make a mistake but in this case I am not. Moreover, I tend to listen a whole lot better when someone with more than 23 posts is talking, especially when that person hasn't even established themselves in a light other than someone who just jumps down my throat. If you came on and showed strong mechanical skills, I'd be all ears but given the last few posts, I'm not so inclined.
I am well aware of what diffs do but the major factor you are missing is that any and all engine power has to pass through the differentials before it hits the ground. Should we also dismiss the transmission in our discussion?
I freely admit when I make a mistake but in this case I am not. Moreover, I tend to listen a whole lot better when someone with more than 23 posts is talking, especially when that person hasn't even established themselves in a light other than someone who just jumps down my throat. If you came on and showed strong mechanical skills, I'd be all ears but given the last few posts, I'm not so inclined.
Yes, the power goes from the trans (or in this case, the center diff) to the wheel diffs, to the rims, then the tires, and finally, through friction - to the dyno.
How much HP would you say the front, and rear diffs are eating up? Do you really thing that the s-awc diff eats up substantially more or less hp than the mechanical limited slips? - this is the point. I won't bother anymore. If you truly cannot grasp this, then it's your loss.
No one argued this point
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From: michigan
Funny how you say I can't reason yet you've yet to provide a rational argument supporting your claim in the face of multiple objectors.
I am well aware of what diffs do but the major factor you are missing is that any and all engine power has to pass through the differentials before it hits the ground. Should we also dismiss the transmission in our discussion?
I freely admit when I make a mistake but in this case I am not. Moreover, I tend to listen a whole lot better when someone with more than 23 posts is talking, especially when that person hasn't even established themselves in a light other than someone who just jumps down my throat. If you came on and showed strong mechanical skills, I'd be all ears but given the last few posts, I'm not so inclined.
I am well aware of what diffs do but the major factor you are missing is that any and all engine power has to pass through the differentials before it hits the ground. Should we also dismiss the transmission in our discussion?
I freely admit when I make a mistake but in this case I am not. Moreover, I tend to listen a whole lot better when someone with more than 23 posts is talking, especially when that person hasn't even established themselves in a light other than someone who just jumps down my throat. If you came on and showed strong mechanical skills, I'd be all ears but given the last few posts, I'm not so inclined.
LOL
I showed strong mechanical skills. You just don't understand them. Sorry.. It's not my fault.
We have no idea how much (specifically) the diffs are eating up but you cannot dismiss them, that is poor science.
I really don't care about your claims because this is the internet, everyone can claim to be whatever they want. However, since you have yet to establish yourself, I'm not exactly going to instantly trust what you have to say, especially when it goes against logic.
I really don't care about your claims because this is the internet, everyone can claim to be whatever they want. However, since you have yet to establish yourself, I'm not exactly going to instantly trust what you have to say, especially when it goes against logic.
.
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From: michigan
We have no idea how much (specifically) the diffs are eating up but you cannot dismiss them, that is poor science.
I really don't care about your claims because this is the internet, everyone can claim to be whatever they want. However, since you have yet to establish yourself, I'm not exactly going to instantly trust what you have to say, especially when it goes against logic.
I really don't care about your claims because this is the internet, everyone can claim to be whatever they want. However, since you have yet to establish yourself, I'm not exactly going to instantly trust what you have to say, especially when it goes against logic.
If we really want to get into it, the difference in weight of the wheels/tires is most likely more significant than weight of the diffs.
I don't know what school of logic you came from.
Now only if madcows and the other know-it-alls would look at the information about SAE testing standard J1349 it's how Mitsubishi (and most manufacturers) rate their engines. Why did you ignore this to continue your pointless arguement with ambystom01 about differentials?
Did you even review what I posted?? Let me put it up again...I've answered the J1349 rating standard for modern engines for those conspiracy theorists about hp ratings. But for those that would like to educate themselves further...
http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm
or more here:
http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tec...horsepower.htm
Did you even review what I posted?? Let me put it up again...I've answered the J1349 rating standard for modern engines for those conspiracy theorists about hp ratings. But for those that would like to educate themselves further...
http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm
or more here:
http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tec...horsepower.htm
Last edited by EVO Neil; Dec 11, 2008 at 11:50 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2008
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From: Kelowna, CANADA
Now only if madcows and the other know-it-alls would look at the information about SAE testing standard J1349 it's how Mitsubishi (and most manufacturers) rate their engines. Why did you ignore this to continue your pointless arguement with ambystom01 about differentials?
Did you even review what I posted?? Let me put it up again...I've answered the J1349 rating standard for modern engines for those conspiracy theorists about hp ratings. But for those that would like to educate themselves further...
http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm
or more here:
http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tec...horsepower.htm
Did you even review what I posted?? Let me put it up again...I've answered the J1349 rating standard for modern engines for those conspiracy theorists about hp ratings. But for those that would like to educate themselves further...
http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm
or more here:
http://www.land-and-sea.com/dyno-tec...horsepower.htm
I couldnt find any info regarding diffs in the first link and I got bored reading the second link, could you post that part??