Case study # 77 - SAFC vs. FLASH
Aug 14, 2005, 12:42 PM
#46
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the AFC is a good piggyback tuning tool...although sometimes the peak #s are higher with an afc....most of the time the cars with a flash will have more consistant power with a much broader powerband to use.....not to mention they usually turn out much smoother.
my .02
my .02
Aug 28, 2005, 04:52 AM
#47
Some of the comments on this thread make me disgusted that such overt attempts would be made by supposedly 'reputable' individuals to steer opinion through oversimplification and attempted confusion.
It's not surprising at all that the majority of the antagonistic SAFC comments are from the guys that have a vested interest in selling their own services. Is it not enough to create your own masturbatory thread in favor of your products and services? Let your results stand for their own and stop slinging mud at a defenseless competitor. You don't see any APEXi engineers on here defending their product, do you?
Bottom line is that the SAFC isn't for a lot of people. You have to have the ability to read an instruction manual, understand basic premises of fuel management, and (here's perhaps the toughest part) not be suckered in by guys offering their promises of a better and more hassle-free engine management option for your evo.
I'm not a rocket scientist, nor do I own a dyno, live by my 'tooning' abilities, own stock in APEXi...yada yada, but I do know a little about tuning my car and have used many devices to tune DSM's and EVO's. For my money, I'd get a wideband, a datalogger, and an SAFC and tune my own car. That way I don't A) spend too much, B) continue to spend more when I want changes, C) have the inconvenience of being dedicated to a particular shop or tuner. And those are just the main advantages.
Saying the ecu's between dsm's and evo's are different is plain enough truth, but when you make analogies like 'apple to oranges' or '90's technology to current technology' it's just not informative and to me sounds like uneducated and unsubstantiated derision.
As far as the timing aspect goes, that kind of tuning requires a dyno. You won't be able to convince me that a road tune will be able to accurately demonstate the dynamics involved and controlled parameters required to properly adjust timing _after_ the fuel is already set. It's a subtle point that few will use. So subtle in fact that I challenge the validity of a mail in flash or 'universal' tune offered from any vendor. Remember Buschur's secret safc settings? There's a reason that plan wasn't executed to perfection and it didn't have anything to do with the fact it was an SAFC.
So go bash the SAFC elsewhere. It does its job just fine.
For you guys that still believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, and promises of a 5 minute install that nets your car the best tune on the road, then I'll just be envious, for as they say, ignorance is bliss.
It's not surprising at all that the majority of the antagonistic SAFC comments are from the guys that have a vested interest in selling their own services. Is it not enough to create your own masturbatory thread in favor of your products and services? Let your results stand for their own and stop slinging mud at a defenseless competitor. You don't see any APEXi engineers on here defending their product, do you?
Bottom line is that the SAFC isn't for a lot of people. You have to have the ability to read an instruction manual, understand basic premises of fuel management, and (here's perhaps the toughest part) not be suckered in by guys offering their promises of a better and more hassle-free engine management option for your evo.
I'm not a rocket scientist, nor do I own a dyno, live by my 'tooning' abilities, own stock in APEXi...yada yada, but I do know a little about tuning my car and have used many devices to tune DSM's and EVO's. For my money, I'd get a wideband, a datalogger, and an SAFC and tune my own car. That way I don't A) spend too much, B) continue to spend more when I want changes, C) have the inconvenience of being dedicated to a particular shop or tuner. And those are just the main advantages.
Saying the ecu's between dsm's and evo's are different is plain enough truth, but when you make analogies like 'apple to oranges' or '90's technology to current technology' it's just not informative and to me sounds like uneducated and unsubstantiated derision.
As far as the timing aspect goes, that kind of tuning requires a dyno. You won't be able to convince me that a road tune will be able to accurately demonstate the dynamics involved and controlled parameters required to properly adjust timing _after_ the fuel is already set. It's a subtle point that few will use. So subtle in fact that I challenge the validity of a mail in flash or 'universal' tune offered from any vendor. Remember Buschur's secret safc settings? There's a reason that plan wasn't executed to perfection and it didn't have anything to do with the fact it was an SAFC.
So go bash the SAFC elsewhere. It does its job just fine.
For you guys that still believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, and promises of a 5 minute install that nets your car the best tune on the road, then I'll just be envious, for as they say, ignorance is bliss.
Last edited by 144mph; Aug 28, 2005 at 05:03 AM.
Aug 28, 2005, 08:06 AM
#48
How is you are addressing the timing again with your AFC tuning? Besides leaning the car out with larger injectors. The knock retard table also? Rev limiter? Boost cut?
That may be the point many are trying to make in terms of the flash. You are getting much more than just fuel changes. Least there are tuning options, something for everyone.
That may be the point many are trying to make in terms of the flash. You are getting much more than just fuel changes. Least there are tuning options, something for everyone.
Aug 28, 2005, 08:28 AM
#49
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Originally Posted by 144mph
Some of the comments on this thread make me disgusted that such overt attempts would be made by supposedly 'reputable' individuals to steer opinion through oversimplification and attempted confusion.
It's not surprising at all that the majority of the antagonistic SAFC comments are from the guys that have a vested interest in selling their own services. Is it not enough to create your own masturbatory thread in favor of your products and services? Let your results stand for their own and stop slinging mud at a defenseless competitor. You don't see any APEXi engineers on here defending their product, do you?
Bottom line is that the SAFC isn't for a lot of people. You have to have the ability to read an instruction manual, understand basic premises of fuel management, and (here's perhaps the toughest part) not be suckered in by guys offering their promises of a better and more hassle-free engine management option for your evo.
I'm not a rocket scientist, nor do I own a dyno, live by my 'tooning' abilities, own stock in APEXi...yada yada, but I do know a little about tuning my car and have used many devices to tune DSM's and EVO's. For my money, I'd get a wideband, a datalogger, and an SAFC and tune my own car. That way I don't A) spend too much, B) continue to spend more when I want changes, C) have the inconvenience of being dedicated to a particular shop or tuner. And those are just the main advantages.
Saying the ecu's between dsm's and evo's are different is plain enough truth, but when you make analogies like 'apple to oranges' or '90's technology to current technology' it's just not informative and to me sounds like uneducated and unsubstantiated derision.
As far as the timing aspect goes, that kind of tuning requires a dyno. You won't be able to convince me that a road tune will be able to accurately demonstate the dynamics involved and controlled parameters required to properly adjust timing _after_ the fuel is already set. It's a subtle point that few will use. So subtle in fact that I challenge the validity of a mail in flash or 'universal' tune offered from any vendor. Remember Buschur's secret safc settings? There's a reason that plan wasn't executed to perfection and it didn't have anything to do with the fact it was an SAFC.
So go bash the SAFC elsewhere. It does its job just fine.
For you guys that still believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, and promises of a 5 minute install that nets your car the best tune on the road, then I'll just be envious, for as they say, ignorance is bliss.
It's not surprising at all that the majority of the antagonistic SAFC comments are from the guys that have a vested interest in selling their own services. Is it not enough to create your own masturbatory thread in favor of your products and services? Let your results stand for their own and stop slinging mud at a defenseless competitor. You don't see any APEXi engineers on here defending their product, do you?
Bottom line is that the SAFC isn't for a lot of people. You have to have the ability to read an instruction manual, understand basic premises of fuel management, and (here's perhaps the toughest part) not be suckered in by guys offering their promises of a better and more hassle-free engine management option for your evo.
I'm not a rocket scientist, nor do I own a dyno, live by my 'tooning' abilities, own stock in APEXi...yada yada, but I do know a little about tuning my car and have used many devices to tune DSM's and EVO's. For my money, I'd get a wideband, a datalogger, and an SAFC and tune my own car. That way I don't A) spend too much, B) continue to spend more when I want changes, C) have the inconvenience of being dedicated to a particular shop or tuner. And those are just the main advantages.
Saying the ecu's between dsm's and evo's are different is plain enough truth, but when you make analogies like 'apple to oranges' or '90's technology to current technology' it's just not informative and to me sounds like uneducated and unsubstantiated derision.
As far as the timing aspect goes, that kind of tuning requires a dyno. You won't be able to convince me that a road tune will be able to accurately demonstate the dynamics involved and controlled parameters required to properly adjust timing _after_ the fuel is already set. It's a subtle point that few will use. So subtle in fact that I challenge the validity of a mail in flash or 'universal' tune offered from any vendor. Remember Buschur's secret safc settings? There's a reason that plan wasn't executed to perfection and it didn't have anything to do with the fact it was an SAFC.
So go bash the SAFC elsewhere. It does its job just fine.
For you guys that still believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, and promises of a 5 minute install that nets your car the best tune on the road, then I'll just be envious, for as they say, ignorance is bliss.
Only a totally misinformed and misdirected individual with no real understanding of how the various tuning tools work and why they do what they do would make such idiotic remarks
Here is a very brief discussion of FACTS relating to why a piggy back MAF signla interceptor - such as a SAFC can NEVER do as good a job at tuning a evo as a reflash - period
Keep in mind several points for those reading this
1 - The stock evo fuel MAPS (thats right PLURAL - two main fuel and ignition maps) are OVERLY RICH
This means that with your SAFC you will be TAKING OUT FUEL - adding fuel will only make the car even richer and loose power.
The power is gained by making the car leaner and taking out a percentage of MAF SIGNAL with the SAFC
This results in the ecu seeing less LOAD as the MAF signal is the LOAD reference of the ecu
2 - The stock Evo ignition timing maps have very conservative ignition timing in the normal LOAD zones and the timing tables advance significantly in LOWER LOAD areas of the MAPs which would generaly be areas of transition where the car is going from low boost to high boost or partial throttle conditions
The reduction of the LOAD reference by the SAFC adjustments has the unitended effect of putting the load reference squarly into the more overly advanced areas of the ingition timing maps
This results in common KNOCK and DETONATION which then triggers the ecu to PULL out loads of timing in a rough manner in the whole mid range of the power band
The end effect - which can be tested and verified with a OBDII scan tool is that the SAFC user winds up with very low ignition timing figures in the middle of the power band - sometimes resulting in NEGATIVE ignition timing which kills tq and makes for a very rough power band.
After 6,000 the SAFC actually does quite well - but the lower end of the power band is weak.
The reflash can independantly set the ignition timing and fuel without manipulating the LOAD reference signal and thus NONE of these problems are an issue.
Genrerally the reflashed tuned cars make significantly more tq than SFAC tuned cars due to these reasons
3- Since the stock ecu has two main fuel and ignition maps which it coinstantly moves between - this means the SAFC tune will change as the ecu moves between map 1 and map 2. With the reflash you can adjust both fuel maps so this is not an issue.
4 - I have seen SAFC with electrical issues which cause them to work in a incosnistant manner. With the reflash there is no additional wires, devices or connections to fail.
In conclusion - the SAFC is a nice, cheap play toy which can yield decent gains on the top end of the power band. However, it is not match for a properly tuned reflash.
Aug 28, 2005, 08:32 AM
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The dyno sheet posted in post number one of this thread is very characteristic of what I am talking about with the SAFC tuning
Please remember that Buschur Racing has replaced the SAFC with the reflash on all of its staged pacakages - you can see more comparative dyno sheets on the Buschur Racing web site
Please remember that Buschur Racing has replaced the SAFC with the reflash on all of its staged pacakages - you can see more comparative dyno sheets on the Buschur Racing web site
Aug 28, 2005, 03:48 PM
#52
I didn't say the safc was the end-all tuning device. Clearly, if you're looking for all the features available to the unlocked dynoflash tuner, you'll need a full system like an ems. This will give complete timing control as well as the ability to change many other parameters, and one significant benefit even the dynoflash or ecutek touted here can't boast; the ability to switch the car to a map system. I'm not surprised you two vendors haven't brought that up yet. It's an inherent limit in both of your systems.
I like how you conveniently skirt the cost issue as well. I'd be interested to see how much the average custom flashed customer and ecutek (which i realize is substantially more due to ecuteks exorbitant unlocking fee) spends on their vehicle over it's lifetime. Are they really seeing the benefits as far as dollar/performance is concerned? And if you're going to come back with 'you get what you pay for' then it's clear that if they wanted the very best, they'd look to a motec, aem ems, or tec II system.
Al, I'd like to respond to your post since you took the time to construct a thought out response.
1. Thank you for pointing out how fuel tuning works, Captain Obvious.
2. I realize the SAFC only indirectly affects the timing. I stated it isn't the most powerful tuning device and does have it's limitations. My argument here isn't for the SAFC, it's against the notion that owners should blindly hop on the 'biggest tuning fad' bandwagon and take the route of ignorant acceptance of what their shop tells them. And if an individual decides they want timing control and doesn't mind the addition of another piggy back, then they can go with an APEXi ITC or a similar product. Bottom line is that most (not all) of the problem with the stock ecu is the fuel tables.
3. As long as the owner/tuner keeps his eyes on the cars datalogs periodically, consistently fills with the same grade gasoline, and has a reasonable safc tune on their car the dual map feature doesn't really come into play. But yes, IF the ecu switches maps, the SAFC is unaware of this and doesn't have the sophistication to determine that it's Hz changes should adjust appropriately. So I will have to concede this point to the superiority of the Dynoflash and EcuTek.
4. There have also been claims of Dynoflashed guys who swear their car ran like crap from the instant it was flashed, until it was returned to stock. There are always exceptions and aberrant behavior. It is easy to install an SAFC improperly if the instructions are not adhered to. I'm talking about the majority of SAFC owners, and I don't think this point has much relevance in the context of the majority of cases we're discussing.
I know Buschur isn't a big fan of the SAFC, but lets face it. Tuning cars was never their specialty. They're good at developing simple parts like intercoolers, exhausts, intercooler pipes and the like at economical prices. They've got a name because they're usually on the front line with solid real world results and are willing to take operational risks in order to develop products and services for the enthusiasts.
Precision, you seem like a dim fellow, but I'll refrain from further comment because perhaps you're just not good at expressing yourself online. Calling me breathtakingly ignorant and regarding my post as ridiculous doesn't really add much so perhaps you should only post when you have something to contribute to the argument.
I like how you conveniently skirt the cost issue as well. I'd be interested to see how much the average custom flashed customer and ecutek (which i realize is substantially more due to ecuteks exorbitant unlocking fee) spends on their vehicle over it's lifetime. Are they really seeing the benefits as far as dollar/performance is concerned? And if you're going to come back with 'you get what you pay for' then it's clear that if they wanted the very best, they'd look to a motec, aem ems, or tec II system.
Al, I'd like to respond to your post since you took the time to construct a thought out response.
1. Thank you for pointing out how fuel tuning works, Captain Obvious.
2. I realize the SAFC only indirectly affects the timing. I stated it isn't the most powerful tuning device and does have it's limitations. My argument here isn't for the SAFC, it's against the notion that owners should blindly hop on the 'biggest tuning fad' bandwagon and take the route of ignorant acceptance of what their shop tells them. And if an individual decides they want timing control and doesn't mind the addition of another piggy back, then they can go with an APEXi ITC or a similar product. Bottom line is that most (not all) of the problem with the stock ecu is the fuel tables.
3. As long as the owner/tuner keeps his eyes on the cars datalogs periodically, consistently fills with the same grade gasoline, and has a reasonable safc tune on their car the dual map feature doesn't really come into play. But yes, IF the ecu switches maps, the SAFC is unaware of this and doesn't have the sophistication to determine that it's Hz changes should adjust appropriately. So I will have to concede this point to the superiority of the Dynoflash and EcuTek.
4. There have also been claims of Dynoflashed guys who swear their car ran like crap from the instant it was flashed, until it was returned to stock. There are always exceptions and aberrant behavior. It is easy to install an SAFC improperly if the instructions are not adhered to. I'm talking about the majority of SAFC owners, and I don't think this point has much relevance in the context of the majority of cases we're discussing.
I know Buschur isn't a big fan of the SAFC, but lets face it. Tuning cars was never their specialty. They're good at developing simple parts like intercoolers, exhausts, intercooler pipes and the like at economical prices. They've got a name because they're usually on the front line with solid real world results and are willing to take operational risks in order to develop products and services for the enthusiasts.
Precision, you seem like a dim fellow, but I'll refrain from further comment because perhaps you're just not good at expressing yourself online. Calling me breathtakingly ignorant and regarding my post as ridiculous doesn't really add much so perhaps you should only post when you have something to contribute to the argument.
Aug 28, 2005, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 144mph
So go bash the SAFC elsewhere. It does its job just fine.
For you guys that still believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, and promises of a 5 minute install that nets your car the best tune on the road, then I'll just be envious, for as they say, ignorance is bliss.
j/k.
Aug 28, 2005, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by bdking57
Couldnt be happier with my safcII.. made 280/281tq on a mustang dyno.. and the car feels consitantly powerful.
Last edited by bigjhoney; Aug 28, 2005 at 06:37 PM.
Aug 28, 2005, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by 144mph
I didn't say the safc was the end-all tuning device. Clearly, if you're looking for all the features available to the unlocked dynoflash tuner, you'll need a full system like an ems. This will give complete timing control as well as the ability to change many other parameters, and one significant benefit even the dynoflash or ecutek touted here can't boast; the ability to switch the car to a map system. I'm not surprised you two vendors haven't brought that up yet. It's an inherent limit in both of your systems.
I like how you conveniently skirt the cost issue as well. I'd be interested to see how much the average custom flashed customer and ecutek (which i realize is substantially more due to ecuteks exorbitant unlocking fee) spends on their vehicle over it's lifetime. Are they really seeing the benefits as far as dollar/performance is concerned? And if you're going to come back with 'you get what you pay for' then it's clear that if they wanted the very best, they'd look to a motec, aem ems, or tec II system.
Al, I'd like to respond to your post since you took the time to construct a thought out response.
1. Thank you for pointing out how fuel tuning works, Captain Obvious.
2. I realize the SAFC only indirectly affects the timing. I stated it isn't the most powerful tuning device and does have it's limitations. My argument here isn't for the SAFC, it's against the notion that owners should blindly hop on the 'biggest tuning fad' bandwagon and take the route of ignorant acceptance of what their shop tells them. And if an individual decides they want timing control and doesn't mind the addition of another piggy back, then they can go with an APEXi ITC or a similar product. Bottom line is that most (not all) of the problem with the stock ecu is the fuel tables.
3. As long as the owner/tuner keeps his eyes on the cars datalogs periodically, consistently fills with the same grade gasoline, and has a reasonable safc tune on their car the dual map feature doesn't really come into play. But yes, IF the ecu switches maps, the SAFC is unaware of this and doesn't have the sophistication to determine that it's Hz changes should adjust appropriately. So I will have to concede this point to the superiority of the Dynoflash and EcuTek.
4. There have also been claims of Dynoflashed guys who swear their car ran like crap from the instant it was flashed, until it was returned to stock. There are always exceptions and aberrant behavior. It is easy to install an SAFC improperly if the instructions are not adhered to. I'm talking about the majority of SAFC owners, and I don't think this point has much relevance in the context of the majority of cases we're discussing.
I know Buschur isn't a big fan of the SAFC, but lets face it. Tuning cars was never their specialty. They're good at developing simple parts like intercoolers, exhausts, intercooler pipes and the like at economical prices. They've got a name because they're usually on the front line with solid real world results and are willing to take operational risks in order to develop products and services for the enthusiasts.
Precision, you seem like a dim fellow, but I'll refrain from further comment because perhaps you're just not good at expressing yourself online. Calling me breathtakingly ignorant and regarding my post as ridiculous doesn't really add much so perhaps you should only post when you have something to contribute to the argument.
I like how you conveniently skirt the cost issue as well. I'd be interested to see how much the average custom flashed customer and ecutek (which i realize is substantially more due to ecuteks exorbitant unlocking fee) spends on their vehicle over it's lifetime. Are they really seeing the benefits as far as dollar/performance is concerned? And if you're going to come back with 'you get what you pay for' then it's clear that if they wanted the very best, they'd look to a motec, aem ems, or tec II system.
Al, I'd like to respond to your post since you took the time to construct a thought out response.
1. Thank you for pointing out how fuel tuning works, Captain Obvious.
2. I realize the SAFC only indirectly affects the timing. I stated it isn't the most powerful tuning device and does have it's limitations. My argument here isn't for the SAFC, it's against the notion that owners should blindly hop on the 'biggest tuning fad' bandwagon and take the route of ignorant acceptance of what their shop tells them. And if an individual decides they want timing control and doesn't mind the addition of another piggy back, then they can go with an APEXi ITC or a similar product. Bottom line is that most (not all) of the problem with the stock ecu is the fuel tables.
3. As long as the owner/tuner keeps his eyes on the cars datalogs periodically, consistently fills with the same grade gasoline, and has a reasonable safc tune on their car the dual map feature doesn't really come into play. But yes, IF the ecu switches maps, the SAFC is unaware of this and doesn't have the sophistication to determine that it's Hz changes should adjust appropriately. So I will have to concede this point to the superiority of the Dynoflash and EcuTek.
4. There have also been claims of Dynoflashed guys who swear their car ran like crap from the instant it was flashed, until it was returned to stock. There are always exceptions and aberrant behavior. It is easy to install an SAFC improperly if the instructions are not adhered to. I'm talking about the majority of SAFC owners, and I don't think this point has much relevance in the context of the majority of cases we're discussing.
I know Buschur isn't a big fan of the SAFC, but lets face it. Tuning cars was never their specialty. They're good at developing simple parts like intercoolers, exhausts, intercooler pipes and the like at economical prices. They've got a name because they're usually on the front line with solid real world results and are willing to take operational risks in order to develop products and services for the enthusiasts.
Precision, you seem like a dim fellow, but I'll refrain from further comment because perhaps you're just not good at expressing yourself online. Calling me breathtakingly ignorant and regarding my post as ridiculous doesn't really add much so perhaps you should only post when you have something to contribute to the argument.
For those who do not want to do their own adjustments - I offer through the mail updates to the flash at $100 per. All the tuning is included for a plug and play solution.
By the time you buy a SAFC and pay someone to tune it - you have spent more money and gotten a less favorable result
The simple fact IS that the SAFC is a primtaive and simplistic tool that operates on a single plane while a good reflash is working on many different aspects of tuning at the same time to create a balanced operation.
Simply put its idictoic to argue that the SAFC is beter than a reflash in any manner. Its like trying to say that 8 tracks are better than CD's becuase you can buy them for 10 cents at a garage sale.
Aug 29, 2005, 04:59 AM
#58
For my money, I'd get a wideband, a datalogger, and an SAFC and tune my own car.
Not because of all the BS you mention about having something to gain over the other unit yada yada.
Simply because a reflash can be used for the majority of the customers needs.
Many of the Evos tuned just on this forum by various companys, are for customers that have the basic bolt on mods.
With that said a reflash would be their best bet for consistancy in the long run.
Using an Air fuel controller or any type of a piggyback to manipulate input signals to the ECU is just wrong. IMHO.
No matter the complexity of the ecu's, or how they switch into different maps and so on. Give the ECU the proper tools and conditions to work in and it will do its job right all of the time. Lie to it and it will eventually work around it.
Granted the more aggressive you get the worst the learning feature will apparently become.
Clearly, if you're looking for all the features available to the unlocked dynoflash tuner, you'll need a full system like an ems. This will give complete timing control
the ability to switch the car to a map system. I'm not surprised you two vendors haven't brought that up yet. It's an inherent limit in both of your systems.
How can we have a conversation about map based systems in a thread devoted to AFC and reflash tuning. Niether are able to convert the system to a map based setup.
This is not a VPC thread.
If you wanted to discuss the best EMS setup for an Evo then do a search. You may find that what you have said we have discussed several times in may threads. I use and tune AEM over anything else on the market. So selling me on a Map based setup is a waste of your time.
And if you're going to come back with 'you get what you pay for'
You have brought back a thread with nothing but nonsense as a basis and nothing in fact.
Just your clouded opinion about a subject you should really stay out of.
2. I realize the SAFC only indirectly affects the timing. I stated it isn't the most powerful tuning device and does have it's limitations. My argument here isn't for the SAFC, it's against the notion that owners should blindly hop on the 'biggest tuning fad' bandwagon and take the route of ignorant acceptance of what their shop tells them. And if an individual decides they want timing control and doesn't mind the addition of another piggy back, then they can go with an APEXi ITC or a similar product. Bottom line is that most (not all) of the problem with the stock ecu is the fuel tables.
I'm sorry I thought he was just trying to compare his work to an AFC tune.
3. As long as the owner/tuner keeps his eyes on the cars datalogs periodically, consistently fills with the same grade gasoline, and has a reasonable safc tune on their car the dual map feature doesn't really come into play. But yes, IF the ecu switches maps, the SAFC is unaware of this and doesn't have the sophistication to determine that it's Hz changes should adjust appropriately. So I will have to concede this point to the superiority of the Dynoflash and EcuTek.
Precision, you seem like a dim fellow, but I'll refrain from further comment because perhaps you're just not good at expressing yourself online. Calling me breathtakingly ignorant and regarding my post as ridiculous doesn't really add much so perhaps you should only post when you have something to contribute to the argument.
Your right I do not express myself correctly online. I am a much better people person IN "person".
You come on here and post this..
Some of the comments on this thread make me disgusted that such overt attempts would be made by supposedly 'reputable' individuals to steer opinion through oversimplification and attempted confusion.
Were here to confuse and mislead people... yup
Last edited by Precision Dyno; Aug 29, 2005 at 05:02 AM.
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