Pounding the White Rabbit
I'm still scratching my head at these sort of results after what Forced Performance posted when the turbo first came out. Re-read this June 16th post:
Originally Posted by ForcedPerf
Wow, we never expected such a response to this unit. hopefully an admin has activated this account and I'm not wasting my finger time typing a message that won't be posted due the lack of account activation 
There are a few questions that have been raised repeatedly and I'll try to answer them here, but first I want to thank Tym Switzer for his hard work and excellent tuning skills with the AEM. Tym has long been one of the best dependable power producing AEM tuners inside and outside of 4G63 circles that I know of.
Regarding A-B dyno graphs for stock to WR, we dont have any. We did all of our A-B work against a EVO6.5 TME turbo instead of a stock turbo. The dyno graph below shows RUN 008 for the TME against RUN 027 for the White Rabbit. These runs, like most all the runs we did during testing, were made using race gas at 25psi and 11.5-11.8 A/F ratio.
This graph demonstrates the difference in spool up between the TME turbo and the White rabbit turbocharger on the same engine with all other paramters held constant held constant. It is not a demonstration of an all out glory pull on either unit. The car used in this test was a 2.0 with typical bolton mods.
We understand that most consumers do not use racegas, we also understand that most consumers do not use the AEM EMS. That being said we choose to use both because we need the adjustability and datalogging features of the AEM and the knock protection of the leaded fuel during testing. The results/datalogs of the tuning efforts need to be carefully analyzed, and the test engines need to stay together during the testing. If you damage the engine part way through the testing and rebuild it then you no longer maintain the A-B test. Risking the engine doing repeated exploration of tuning parameters on pump gas does not make sense in the grand scheme of collecting useful comparison data.
For grins and giggles here is a look one of the components of the White Rabbit turbocharger that makes the whole package work, the compressor.
I know there is a voicemail box full of questions, and I will be doing my best to make all the return calls today.
Boost on!
Robert Young
Forced Performance Inc
There are a few questions that have been raised repeatedly and I'll try to answer them here, but first I want to thank Tym Switzer for his hard work and excellent tuning skills with the AEM. Tym has long been one of the best dependable power producing AEM tuners inside and outside of 4G63 circles that I know of.
Regarding A-B dyno graphs for stock to WR, we dont have any. We did all of our A-B work against a EVO6.5 TME turbo instead of a stock turbo. The dyno graph below shows RUN 008 for the TME against RUN 027 for the White Rabbit. These runs, like most all the runs we did during testing, were made using race gas at 25psi and 11.5-11.8 A/F ratio.
This graph demonstrates the difference in spool up between the TME turbo and the White rabbit turbocharger on the same engine with all other paramters held constant held constant. It is not a demonstration of an all out glory pull on either unit. The car used in this test was a 2.0 with typical bolton mods.
We understand that most consumers do not use racegas, we also understand that most consumers do not use the AEM EMS. That being said we choose to use both because we need the adjustability and datalogging features of the AEM and the knock protection of the leaded fuel during testing. The results/datalogs of the tuning efforts need to be carefully analyzed, and the test engines need to stay together during the testing. If you damage the engine part way through the testing and rebuild it then you no longer maintain the A-B test. Risking the engine doing repeated exploration of tuning parameters on pump gas does not make sense in the grand scheme of collecting useful comparison data.
For grins and giggles here is a look one of the components of the White Rabbit turbocharger that makes the whole package work, the compressor.
I know there is a voicemail box full of questions, and I will be doing my best to make all the return calls today.
Boost on!
Robert Young
Forced Performance Inc
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
BTW - at the track today the customer could not even break into the 11's - he was in the 12's after previously going 11.80 with his old turbo
He lost in the 1st round to an vo 5 with a gt35r turbo which went 11.5
He lost in the 1st round to an vo 5 with a gt35r turbo which went 11.5
power loss ........
I really don't understand these threads lately....
No offense to Tym or anyone else who everyone thinks is gods gift, but Z1 is completely right the numbers are not there. Case closed. There is no more jury.
Unless the hotside on this and any "miracle" bolt up turbo increases then you will see no increase in performance above marginal.
The Mitsu casting is too thin!
You can't machine it for a bigger wheel. Period. So unless someone spends big money on R&D for the new castings to bolt up it isn't going to happen.
Robert was right, Mitsu did a nice overall job on this turbo and spent alot of money on it.
Just my 2 cents....
No offense to Tym or anyone else who everyone thinks is gods gift, but Z1 is completely right the numbers are not there. Case closed. There is no more jury.
Unless the hotside on this and any "miracle" bolt up turbo increases then you will see no increase in performance above marginal.
The Mitsu casting is too thin!
You can't machine it for a bigger wheel. Period. So unless someone spends big money on R&D for the new castings to bolt up it isn't going to happen.
Robert was right, Mitsu did a nice overall job on this turbo and spent alot of money on it.
Just my 2 cents....
I am starting to wonder if the turbo that was initially tested to show such high numbers on a car without cams was somehow “slightly” different than what has been shipped to some of the folks that have had these recent results… I can't imaging someone making that much more power over what we are starting to see... I recall how difficult of a time DB had with the wheels in his testing... How many incorrect wheels did he receive? I also seem to recall that these WR wheels were made by hand (mentioned in another post I think), so could we be looking at a problem in mass producing the WR that was so successful initially? I imagine it is difficult to produce a large quantity of these to exacting specifications under the initial demand with no variance… When things are done by hand it is nearly impossible to do the same exact thing every time… Just a passing thought. I don't mean to cause any problems by speculating in this manner; it just seems that there has to be an explanation to how the initial folks made good power...
Chris
Chris
Last edited by cdavy; Jul 23, 2005 at 07:02 PM.
Originally Posted by GOKOU
Which graph is the WR?
According to AL's dyno WR lost HP. Blue is WR.
According to AL's dyno WR lost HP. Blue is WR.
Al... just curious... I was looking at this dyno sheet trying to discern a few things regarding the conditions of the pulls and whatnot. I didn't see the conditions listed, and I noticed by looking at the times of the pulls that the turbo swap must have been done in minutes. Then I looked at the date of each run. The resolution is poor, but it looks to me like your baseline of the Essex unit was done back in March. I don't know about the weather conditions where you are right now, but it's been over 90 degrees here a lot the last few weeks. I'm also wondering what other mods may have transpired with the car or if it has developed any mechanical issues in the last 4-5 months. I was hoping you could elaborate.
I haven't been able to read through all of the posted threads regarding this turbo this past week, so I am catching up while at home. Hope you have time to give a few more details regarding this test.
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From: Dillon
Originally Posted by mac74
This turbo sux they should done r&d before letting it out . this should be nicknamed cecil..
lol
lol
Newbie:
Read our forum rules concerning personal attacks and language. Thanks.
Last edited by Speedlimit; Jul 24, 2005 at 11:20 AM.
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From: Okinawa, Japan
The white Rabbit is actually the green turtle! It slows you down instead of speeding you up.
I am so glad that I read this because that turbo was on my list of future items to install. I will stick with a 10.5 hotside instead.
-Nate
I am so glad that I read this because that turbo was on my list of future items to install. I will stick with a 10.5 hotside instead.
-Nate
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From: Danville/Blackhawk, California
Originally Posted by Tym Switzer
Al... just curious... I was looking at this dyno sheet trying to discern a few things regarding the conditions of the pulls and whatnot. I didn't see the conditions listed, and I noticed by looking at the times of the pulls that the turbo swap must have been done in minutes. Then I looked at the date of each run. The resolution is poor, but it looks to me like your baseline of the Essex unit was done back in March. I don't know about the weather conditions where you are right now, but it's been over 90 degrees here a lot the last few weeks. I'm also wondering what other mods may have transpired with the car or if it has developed any mechanical issues in the last 4-5 months. I was hoping you could elaborate.
I haven't been able to read through all of the posted threads regarding this turbo this past week, so I am catching up while at home. Hope you have time to give a few more details regarding this test.
I haven't been able to read through all of the posted threads regarding this turbo this past week, so I am catching up while at home. Hope you have time to give a few more details regarding this test.
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Joined: Feb 2004
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From: Texas
Originally Posted by jmakado
Do you have any idea the amount of testing that FP does before they let an idiot like you buy something like this and then complain about it on the internet? I don't have this turbo and I don't even own an EVO so I can't comment about this specific turbo, but to say something like you did about such a stand out vendor is just stupid and untrue.
take a pill, this is a discussion, flaming people and foul language only shows your lack of intelligence. i agree with you that FP is good about R &D but lets keep it to facts and info.
Last edited by Speedlimit; Jul 24, 2005 at 11:20 AM.
Evolved Member
Joined: Mar 2002
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From: Birmingham, AL
Hopefully, it will do better on some other cars. Disapointing, but I can't say I am really suprised. Especially after Buschur gave up trying to make a 20G wheel work in the stock housing.
IMO, the bottom line is nobody can make a better TD05H turbo then Mitsubishi. The skill that the shops like FP and Buschur and so on have could porbably make slight improvements in one direction, but might lose something somewhere else. But in the end the cost is just way too high for the gains.
IMO, the bottom line is nobody can make a better TD05H turbo then Mitsubishi. The skill that the shops like FP and Buschur and so on have could porbably make slight improvements in one direction, but might lose something somewhere else. But in the end the cost is just way too high for the gains.