cosworth dyno on ix sean ivey
I normally tune cars for alot less knock than that so I find this claim odd, but perhaps something else changed.
Cars are not static and there are many variables, fuel quality, mechanical noise from loose parts, downpipes hitting etc.
Who knows, but what I offer is a best effort at the time when I tune it, and I am always up for checking into customer concerns.
Sean
The cams do not pick up as much power on a IX compared to a 8 becuase with the MIVEC the cams are already doing a better job than on the 8
This is evidenced by the fact that a Evo 8 with a IX turbo makes less power with the same mods than a IX
One would expect 30 whp gains on a 8 adding 272 cams
On a IX 30 whp gains on pump gas with the stock turbo are not realistic
It is up to the customer to weigh the cost / benefit of the 10 - 15 whp they can get with the Cosworth cams on a pump gas stock turbo IX
In my opionion the Cosworth cams are the ultimate best units available for the IX
I have driven in 700 whp IX's with a GT37 turbo and the Cosworth cams that were so fast they could make me ill from riding as a passenger
If you look at the company Cosworth and what they do - IMHO you would be very foolish to try and save a few dimes by buying some cheaper cams made by a lesser outfit
With all that said - customers should have reasonable expectations about the power gains you can obtain on pump gas with proper knock counts
I see a lot of examples where dyno claims are being tossed about on really high boost levels which will result in knock on the street
Ironically, last week I tuned a member in Chicago who wanted 400 whp on his IX with alchy and the 20 g turbo and cams
Frankly, I dont know what is the relavance of a dyno number
As fate would have it, i dialed in his car to 395 whp with zero knock at 26 psi peak boost and it was a really smooth, safe and greta running car
The next day my customer is posting how he wants to return to the dyno to "tweak" the car to achieve 400 whp. I am not knocking my customer - I am just pointing out that customers should have more reliance on the judgement and experience of a professional tuner and less concern about dyno numbers which are just ink on a page.
Please keep in mind that 95% of my customers I have questioned over the past 4 years DAILY DRIVE their evo and expect the motor to last 100,000 miles. Please remember this.
AL
Last Saturday there were 2 evo 9s one did 359HP the other did 364HP on that same dyno. Both had HKS racing suction kits, am I biased, no, I did another one too that had BR intake pipe and made similar power.
The combination of parts is what determines what is going to be made among other things.
If people choose their own parts they shouldn't be asking anyone but themselves why they get X number, the tuner can only get what the hard parts allow, fuel quality and such.
I do alot of cars, and there is a trend that I see with certain intakes, exhausts etc. Your best bet is to ask someone who tunes several evos a week on the dyno they would perhaps have seen it all and would save you doing the same mod twice.
None of this is rocket science, the data is out there to build whatever HP level evo you want. If you want 600 wheel hp, it's just as easy, the formulas are all there with the experienced tuners.
http://www.iveytune.com/anotherdayattheoffice.jpg
Cheers
Sean
The combination of parts is what determines what is going to be made among other things.
If people choose their own parts they shouldn't be asking anyone but themselves why they get X number, the tuner can only get what the hard parts allow, fuel quality and such.
I do alot of cars, and there is a trend that I see with certain intakes, exhausts etc. Your best bet is to ask someone who tunes several evos a week on the dyno they would perhaps have seen it all and would save you doing the same mod twice.
None of this is rocket science, the data is out there to build whatever HP level evo you want. If you want 600 wheel hp, it's just as easy, the formulas are all there with the experienced tuners.
http://www.iveytune.com/anotherdayattheoffice.jpg
Cheers
Sean
Last edited by Sean@Iveytune; Apr 26, 2007 at 12:33 PM.
Last Saturday there were 2 evo 9s one did 359HP the other did 364HP on that same dyno. Both had HKS racing suction kits, am I biased, no, I did another one too that had BR intake pipe and made similar power.
The combination of parts is what determines what is going to be made among other things.
If people choose their own parts they shouldn't be asking anyone but themselves why they get X number, the tuner can only get what the hard parts allow, fuel quality and such.
I do alot of cars, and there is a trend that I see with certain intakes, exhausts etc. Your best bet is to ask someone who tunes several evos a week on the dyno they would perhaps have seen it all and would save you doing the same mod twice.
None of this is rocket science, the data is out there to build whatever HP level evo you want. If you want 600 wheel hp, it's just as easy, the formulas are all there with the experienced tuners.
Sean
The combination of parts is what determines what is going to be made among other things.
If people choose their own parts they shouldn't be asking anyone but themselves why they get X number, the tuner can only get what the hard parts allow, fuel quality and such.
I do alot of cars, and there is a trend that I see with certain intakes, exhausts etc. Your best bet is to ask someone who tunes several evos a week on the dyno they would perhaps have seen it all and would save you doing the same mod twice.
None of this is rocket science, the data is out there to build whatever HP level evo you want. If you want 600 wheel hp, it's just as easy, the formulas are all there with the experienced tuners.
Sean
I personally would ask and suggest that more customers in the NY area contact you, I or who ever is doing the tuning before the tune to tocuh base review the goals for the car and get some suggestions about what works and what does not work
I see this same situation all too often
Many times it pains me to see a customer I really like spend hard earned money on parts that are less than optimal and then be disapointed with the results
As tuners, we should only be responsible for a power result when and if we sold the parts and told the customer they should expect "X" amount of power with the parts we sold.
Sadly, many times customers select their own parts which are sold by non tuners who sell the customers a line of BS and the customers may have unrealistic expectations about what kind of power the car should make.
I feel that the focus on dyno figures is entirely misplaced as smoothness, shape of the curve and delivery of power and saftey and reliability are much more important criteria which are far more important. Often peak power is at direct conflict with these more important factors.
Al
Thums up for sean he knows he stuff he tried everything to give me the highest #
A lot of people said stop looking at other people # a lot of dyno are being messed around with and dyno # don't mean anything take it to the track and see your trap speeds
Sean ill be back soon thanks for the tune man
I'm happy with sean
A lot of people said stop looking at other people # a lot of dyno are being messed around with and dyno # don't mean anything take it to the track and see your trap speeds
Sean ill be back soon thanks for the tune man
I'm happy with sean
I did? Who is your friend? I don't remember being contacted about this.
I normally tune cars for alot less knock than that so I find this claim odd, but perhaps something else changed.
Cars are not static and there are many variables, fuel quality, mechanical noise from loose parts, downpipes hitting etc.
Who knows, but what I offer is a best effort at the time when I tune it, and I am always up for checking into customer concerns.
Sean
I normally tune cars for alot less knock than that so I find this claim odd, but perhaps something else changed.
Cars are not static and there are many variables, fuel quality, mechanical noise from loose parts, downpipes hitting etc.
Who knows, but what I offer is a best effort at the time when I tune it, and I am always up for checking into customer concerns.
Sean
Last edited by BoOsTinGEVO190; Apr 26, 2007 at 01:40 PM.
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Piper - you seem to be filled with a lot of anger and negativity as of late - which is odd considering that Clay is a fellow Ex-Marine, I would suggest that you read what he has to say with a more open mind and he is a very dedicated and and informed Evo hobiest - anyway . . . .
In life all man made parts are filled with compromise, nothing man crafts has the perfection of a natural (god made) such as a sunset or a living being.
When he says "not so good" Clay means "COMPROMISED"
For example
The ideal exhaust on a turbo car is a direct 5" tube about 6 " long off the turbo angled in the direction of the car's air flow
As you make an exhaust that directs flow underneath the car and out the back and which also silences some of the sound you start to LOOSE SOME POWER
Generally, the quieter an exhuast the less power it will make
When Clay says "not so good" I believe he means "not optimal for peak power"
That does NOT mean that the exhuast will make NO power and / or is NO GOOD - it means that this customer may have selected an exhuast system which conatines some design features intended to lower the sound level which also may be effecting peak power production as well
As I have said - in life MAN MADE parts are always a series of compromises
To summarize - the design of automotive performance exhuasts involves the balancing of competing goals - power delivery and sound reduction - all manufactuers approach this science in their own manner. The power potential of a particular unit depends upon its design features which I have discussed at greant length elsehwere.
In life all man made parts are filled with compromise, nothing man crafts has the perfection of a natural (god made) such as a sunset or a living being.
When he says "not so good" Clay means "COMPROMISED"
For example
The ideal exhaust on a turbo car is a direct 5" tube about 6 " long off the turbo angled in the direction of the car's air flow
As you make an exhaust that directs flow underneath the car and out the back and which also silences some of the sound you start to LOOSE SOME POWER
Generally, the quieter an exhuast the less power it will make
When Clay says "not so good" I believe he means "not optimal for peak power"
That does NOT mean that the exhuast will make NO power and / or is NO GOOD - it means that this customer may have selected an exhuast system which conatines some design features intended to lower the sound level which also may be effecting peak power production as well
As I have said - in life MAN MADE parts are always a series of compromises
To summarize - the design of automotive performance exhuasts involves the balancing of competing goals - power delivery and sound reduction - all manufactuers approach this science in their own manner. The power potential of a particular unit depends upon its design features which I have discussed at greant length elsehwere.
Nothing I've read here on evom has registered on my anger meter. If I seem negative then maybe I'm just negative, although I think someone would have told me that by now...
As far as Clay, of course I respect him. I don't care how much he knows about Evo's, that doesn't matter. He's a Marine, and that matters a lot; I'd give him the shirt off my back if he asked for it. I'd like to see him be a bit more humble, but that's just not his style.
Concerning the Cosworth cams, Clay implied that they were not so good. Why? Where is the evidence? Where is the list of unhappy customers and poor graphs? That's all I'd like to know.
-Doug
Al:
Nothing I've read here on evom has registered on my anger meter. If I seem negative then maybe I'm just negative, although I think someone would have told me that by now...
As far as Clay, of course I respect him. I don't care how much he knows about Evo's, that doesn't matter. He's a Marine, and that matters a lot; I'd give him the shirt off my back if he asked for it. I'd like to see him be a bit more humble, but that's just not his style.
Concerning the Cosworth cams, Clay implied that they were not so good. Why? Where is the evidence? Where is the list of unhappy customers and poor graphs? That's all I'd like to know.
-Doug
Nothing I've read here on evom has registered on my anger meter. If I seem negative then maybe I'm just negative, although I think someone would have told me that by now...
As far as Clay, of course I respect him. I don't care how much he knows about Evo's, that doesn't matter. He's a Marine, and that matters a lot; I'd give him the shirt off my back if he asked for it. I'd like to see him be a bit more humble, but that's just not his style.
Concerning the Cosworth cams, Clay implied that they were not so good. Why? Where is the evidence? Where is the list of unhappy customers and poor graphs? That's all I'd like to know.
-Doug
As far as Cosworth cams - I have seen mild gains with them and I really like the quality, feel and the idel. I don't think you will see huge gains with them on the stock turbo with pump gas, however as I have said above on a Gt35 or Gt37 they are worth at least 40 whp over the stock ones.
I have not had a lot of opportunity to test other cams yet so I cant draw any over all conclusion
As far as Clay - is he a really stand up guy as most of the customers I have met who have served in the military service.
Al
well sean tuned my car. on my evo 8 pump gas only and made
375hp
380trq
if i remember correctly afr's where 11.2/3
boost was i beleave spike 24 hold 22.5 or 23psi.
at that time no knock. i log'd the car recently and saw a few counts of knock but like he said. fuel and other things play a part in a good tune. my knock was nothing to worry about. probly nothing at all. all i did really was turn my mbc down 1 click and it was gone. so there for it could be weather related. seems mbc's run more boost when cold then warm. i find myself ajusting it aften.
i would not dout the mans tune or skills. i think its no affence sh ity *** mods.
375hp
380trq
if i remember correctly afr's where 11.2/3
boost was i beleave spike 24 hold 22.5 or 23psi.
at that time no knock. i log'd the car recently and saw a few counts of knock but like he said. fuel and other things play a part in a good tune. my knock was nothing to worry about. probly nothing at all. all i did really was turn my mbc down 1 click and it was gone. so there for it could be weather related. seems mbc's run more boost when cold then warm. i find myself ajusting it aften.
i would not dout the mans tune or skills. i think its no affence sh ity *** mods.
yeah, its funny how people trip about peak hp, even though that number is only there for a sec.
It all about what you gained in general, not a certain number. If you are tripping about 400hp when you got 395, then you are a dumb cracka
It all about what you gained in general, not a certain number. If you are tripping about 400hp when you got 395, then you are a dumb cracka
+1 so BoOsTinGEVO190 do you have a baseline run before the cams on the same dyno????
Sean surely did all he could with what you had, but unfortunately, he only had a few good mods to work with: the MBC and fuel pump. The rest of the mods are not so good, which is why you're making the power of an VIII with those mods. It's not like the car is slow, though. VIIIs would be very pleased with that much power on those mods.
. If you have proof otherwise as the APEXi intake not makeing power, please post some proof. Nothing wrong with the Cosworth cams either but I just don't see the gain here. I don't get it. I have seen 360+ On a dynojet with no cam upgrades with an IX so I don't get it. I have also seen an AMS 50Trim on a IX with just a flash and he made over 420WHP, no cams.
FWIW AMS has told me that the IX's don't need fuel pumps and even their stage three cars are fine with the OEM fuel pump, I will go that route.
Last edited by High_PSI; Apr 26, 2007 at 08:51 PM.
Well first pull my #
305 whp 304 tq but very low boost
Raised the boost
346whp 366tq boost was to high 25 26
So we lowered it to 23 24
Which was the final #
340whp 346 tq
Did a couple of more pull to see if we can get higher # that's it
That's all the info I know
305 whp 304 tq but very low boost
Raised the boost
346whp 366tq boost was to high 25 26
So we lowered it to 23 24
Which was the final #
340whp 346 tq
Did a couple of more pull to see if we can get higher # that's it
That's all the info I know