AMS F1 vs Magnus V5
What you are measuring though is completely different than what's going on with a running engine. You have to understand that blowing, or sucking, air through a manifold alone on a flowbench has almost no relevance to what's really going on in an intake manifold in running conditions.
Didn't someone run a CFM test on exhaust manifold before? A stock one to a ported one and a tubular one? I bet on a flowbench the big runner header would flow more CFM, but in real life? We all know that tubular headers don't do much if anything at all on a dyno when compared on stock style turbo's.
Was there a dyno test done before and after 'balancing' a stock intake manifold to show any changes? If doing a true scientific test you first have to replicate airflow through an intake manifold through a running engine, then you have to find a way to quantify airflow through each runner. You also have to correlate test data to dyno data to see if and what is the relevance to each other.
This discussion can really go on forever and then we can speculate on wave propagation and the way the pulses bounce in the plenum. Point is, this manifold works, we've tested it, Sean has tested it, and we've seen what it does on customers cars before and after. There are other good manifolds out there too, just see what works well and pick one you like!
-Happy Holiday and Merry Christmas!
-Martin
Didn't someone run a CFM test on exhaust manifold before? A stock one to a ported one and a tubular one? I bet on a flowbench the big runner header would flow more CFM, but in real life? We all know that tubular headers don't do much if anything at all on a dyno when compared on stock style turbo's.
Was there a dyno test done before and after 'balancing' a stock intake manifold to show any changes? If doing a true scientific test you first have to replicate airflow through an intake manifold through a running engine, then you have to find a way to quantify airflow through each runner. You also have to correlate test data to dyno data to see if and what is the relevance to each other.
This discussion can really go on forever and then we can speculate on wave propagation and the way the pulses bounce in the plenum. Point is, this manifold works, we've tested it, Sean has tested it, and we've seen what it does on customers cars before and after. There are other good manifolds out there too, just see what works well and pick one you like!
-Happy Holiday and Merry Christmas!
-Martin
You all know I am the king of intake manifold testing! (suppose to be funny)
Last winter in my 2nd round of intake testing I got interested in the flow bench too. So rather than just dyno testing, we flow benched each intake first, each runner to figure out how they flowed, how they were balanced. The intakes were flowed with a stock throttle body bolted to them. We also cut/welded and ground on some stock intake manifolds and then hit the flow bench over and over again. We got the runner balanced too. Then we put the intakes on the car and dyno'd them all as we finished each round of mods or flow benching.
I figured out one thing for sure, the flow bench has NOTHING to do with how the intake performs on the car EXCEPT for one, the more it flowed the laggier it was, end of data, end of anyting useful from the dyno.
The full testing along with flow bench testing is on our site and I think it's posted here on evom too. Flow bench is a waste of time in intake development. As a matter of fact if I'm not mistaken, our finished Fabricated Intake Manifold never even went on the flow bench.
If you really want to know how worthless it is, go read the testing and see what happens when the entire plenum is cut off an intake and just the runner is flowed so there is no 90 degree turns for the air to make......
Last winter in my 2nd round of intake testing I got interested in the flow bench too. So rather than just dyno testing, we flow benched each intake first, each runner to figure out how they flowed, how they were balanced. The intakes were flowed with a stock throttle body bolted to them. We also cut/welded and ground on some stock intake manifolds and then hit the flow bench over and over again. We got the runner balanced too. Then we put the intakes on the car and dyno'd them all as we finished each round of mods or flow benching.
I figured out one thing for sure, the flow bench has NOTHING to do with how the intake performs on the car EXCEPT for one, the more it flowed the laggier it was, end of data, end of anyting useful from the dyno.
The full testing along with flow bench testing is on our site and I think it's posted here on evom too. Flow bench is a waste of time in intake development. As a matter of fact if I'm not mistaken, our finished Fabricated Intake Manifold never even went on the flow bench.
If you really want to know how worthless it is, go read the testing and see what happens when the entire plenum is cut off an intake and just the runner is flowed so there is no 90 degree turns for the air to make......
You all know I am the king of intake manifold testing! (suppose to be funny)
Last winter in my 2nd round of intake testing I got interested in the flow bench too. So rather than just dyno testing, we flow benched each intake first, each runner to figure out how they flowed, how they were balanced. The intakes were flowed with a stock throttle body bolted to them. We also cut/welded and ground on some stock intake manifolds and then hit the flow bench over and over again. We got the runner balanced too. Then we put the intakes on the car and dyno'd them all as we finished each round of mods or flow benching.
I figured out one thing for sure, the flow bench has NOTHING to do with how the intake performs on the car EXCEPT for one, the more it flowed the laggier it was, end of data, end of anyting useful from the dyno.
The full testing along with flow bench testing is on our site and I think it's posted here on evom too. Flow bench is a waste of time in intake development. As a matter of fact if I'm not mistaken, our finished Fabricated Intake Manifold never even went on the flow bench.
If you really want to know how worthless it is, go read the testing and see what happens when the entire plenum is cut off an intake and just the runner is flowed so there is no 90 degree turns for the air to make......
Last winter in my 2nd round of intake testing I got interested in the flow bench too. So rather than just dyno testing, we flow benched each intake first, each runner to figure out how they flowed, how they were balanced. The intakes were flowed with a stock throttle body bolted to them. We also cut/welded and ground on some stock intake manifolds and then hit the flow bench over and over again. We got the runner balanced too. Then we put the intakes on the car and dyno'd them all as we finished each round of mods or flow benching.
I figured out one thing for sure, the flow bench has NOTHING to do with how the intake performs on the car EXCEPT for one, the more it flowed the laggier it was, end of data, end of anyting useful from the dyno.
The full testing along with flow bench testing is on our site and I think it's posted here on evom too. Flow bench is a waste of time in intake development. As a matter of fact if I'm not mistaken, our finished Fabricated Intake Manifold never even went on the flow bench.
If you really want to know how worthless it is, go read the testing and see what happens when the entire plenum is cut off an intake and just the runner is flowed so there is no 90 degree turns for the air to make......
You all know I am the king of intake manifold testing! (suppose to be funny)
Last winter in my 2nd round of intake testing I got interested in the flow bench too. So rather than just dyno testing, we flow benched each intake first, each runner to figure out how they flowed, how they were balanced. The intakes were flowed with a stock throttle body bolted to them. We also cut/welded and ground on some stock intake manifolds and then hit the flow bench over and over again. We got the runner balanced too. Then we put the intakes on the car and dyno'd them all as we finished each round of mods or flow benching.
I figured out one thing for sure, the flow bench has NOTHING to do with how the intake performs on the car EXCEPT for one, the more it flowed the laggier it was, end of data, end of anyting useful from the dyno.
The full testing along with flow bench testing is on our site and I think it's posted here on evom too. Flow bench is a waste of time in intake development. As a matter of fact if I'm not mistaken, our finished Fabricated Intake Manifold never even went on the flow bench.
If you really want to know how worthless it is, go read the testing and see what happens when the entire plenum is cut off an intake and just the runner is flowed so there is no 90 degree turns for the air to make......
Last winter in my 2nd round of intake testing I got interested in the flow bench too. So rather than just dyno testing, we flow benched each intake first, each runner to figure out how they flowed, how they were balanced. The intakes were flowed with a stock throttle body bolted to them. We also cut/welded and ground on some stock intake manifolds and then hit the flow bench over and over again. We got the runner balanced too. Then we put the intakes on the car and dyno'd them all as we finished each round of mods or flow benching.
I figured out one thing for sure, the flow bench has NOTHING to do with how the intake performs on the car EXCEPT for one, the more it flowed the laggier it was, end of data, end of anyting useful from the dyno.
The full testing along with flow bench testing is on our site and I think it's posted here on evom too. Flow bench is a waste of time in intake development. As a matter of fact if I'm not mistaken, our finished Fabricated Intake Manifold never even went on the flow bench.
If you really want to know how worthless it is, go read the testing and see what happens when the entire plenum is cut off an intake and just the runner is flowed so there is no 90 degree turns for the air to make......
Thanks, Martin, Chris, Bob Dave etc......for answering my equal flow question!
So what am I truly looking for in a intake manifold.....? It sounds like we need an Evo engine built up to a certain level as a constant hooked up to an engine dyno. We should start with a stock manifold as a base run and then proceed to replace it with everyone's manifold. It would be pretty easy to swap manifolds on an engine dyno. The stock manifold should be tuned for max output and as each manifold is bolted on, there should be just a "bolt on" run and a "tuned" run recorded for each one. What do you guys think? I guess the hardest part would be to find someone with an engine dyno.......?
So what am I truly looking for in a intake manifold.....? It sounds like we need an Evo engine built up to a certain level as a constant hooked up to an engine dyno. We should start with a stock manifold as a base run and then proceed to replace it with everyone's manifold. It would be pretty easy to swap manifolds on an engine dyno. The stock manifold should be tuned for max output and as each manifold is bolted on, there should be just a "bolt on" run and a "tuned" run recorded for each one. What do you guys think? I guess the hardest part would be to find someone with an engine dyno.......?
There is an engine dyno 200' from our front door. Using it is pointless and tieing up someone's engine dyno for crazy amounts of time to do all this would be more than costly. Just getting a 4g63 set up on an engine dyno is a complete PITA.
The testing has been done on chassis dyno's, back to back, same day up to 4 manifolds in a day at our shop.
The testing has been done on chassis dyno's, back to back, same day up to 4 manifolds in a day at our shop.
Evolving Member
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
From: England
There is an engine dyno 200' from our front door. Using it is pointless and tieing up someone's engine dyno for crazy amounts of time to do all this would be more than costly. Just getting a 4g63 set up on an engine dyno is a complete PITA.
The testing has been done on chassis dyno's, back to back, same day up to 4 manifolds in a day at our shop.
The testing has been done on chassis dyno's, back to back, same day up to 4 manifolds in a day at our shop.
Mark
On a well prepped car there is not a big difference in time to install and uninstall one as there is not much in the way. Also, testing in a car replicates real life conditions (Heat and load) and allows for a more accurate test IMHO. There may not be a big difference at all but in the end every bit matters.
-Em
Yes, Mark, if the dyno is set up for a 4g63 it would be quite simple. To do the set up initially is extremely time consuming.
First there is the adapter to run the engine on the dyno. Then there is the issue of putting all the i/c pipes and FMIC together and mounting them to run, then there is the fuel system which requires high pressure and twin pumps for this type of HP level, the throttle linkage set up becomes another issue etc., etc.
For us it is much easier to bolt it to the chassis dyno and run the tests, we've done 4 intakes in one day on the dyno so they could all be back-to-back tested.
Hell yes, I'd like to have an engine dyno to just leave one of these engines on at all times for testing. That would be killer.
First there is the adapter to run the engine on the dyno. Then there is the issue of putting all the i/c pipes and FMIC together and mounting them to run, then there is the fuel system which requires high pressure and twin pumps for this type of HP level, the throttle linkage set up becomes another issue etc., etc.
For us it is much easier to bolt it to the chassis dyno and run the tests, we've done 4 intakes in one day on the dyno so they could all be back-to-back tested.
Hell yes, I'd like to have an engine dyno to just leave one of these engines on at all times for testing. That would be killer.
Former Sponsor
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
From: Minnesota
On a well prepped car there is not a big difference in time to install and uninstall one as there is not much in the way. Also, testing in a car replicates real life conditions (Heat and load) and allows for a more accurate test IMHO. There may not be a big difference at all but in the end every bit matters.
-Em
-Em
Keep in mind that with the right engine dyno you can put real world loads on a motor. F1 teams will load on a track profile (to simulate a full race event) in order to get their "real world" results or to tweak a tune specific to their needs....
Im currently in the market for a manifold for my Built 2.1, FF 6262, Big Cam, Buschur Head, e85 car
Im sooo Confused on who's to buy lol
Who's willing to give me the best deal
Im sooo Confused on who's to buy lol
Who's willing to give me the best deal
Last edited by Evokid03; Jan 17, 2010 at 01:36 AM.
I think you are gonna be in good hands with any of the aforementioned intakes. Buschur, DI, AMS etc.. they are all well tested with positive results. I'm with you Evokid03, who can give me the best deal, that's my winner...