New BW EFR Turbo Thread
The absolute maximum I've seen a 7670 do on a Dynapack is 430kwatw (576whp).
This was with an EJ20 and ~35psi.
This was with one of the first EFR turbo's with investment cast stainless steel housing.
Twin scroll EWG 1.05.
This was with an EJ20 and ~35psi.
This was with one of the first EFR turbo's with investment cast stainless steel housing.
Twin scroll EWG 1.05.
Eric
Awesome feedback, and am so glad that I noted all of what you said before committing to 8374 instead of 7670.
Mine is a dual purpose car, and I wanted 7670- got 8374 which actually is absolutely spot on choice for what suits me, i.e. great spool and response everywhere, and top end- well, it will do what it does - it will do more the GTX3076R and that is good 'nough.
Wonder what do you think of using 3" DP from Full Race, or is 3.5" of significant benefit?
The Full Race 3" DP makes a very sharp turn out of the EFR turbo: am I missing anything or nothing worth stressing over in midrange?
Awesome feedback, and am so glad that I noted all of what you said before committing to 8374 instead of 7670.
Mine is a dual purpose car, and I wanted 7670- got 8374 which actually is absolutely spot on choice for what suits me, i.e. great spool and response everywhere, and top end- well, it will do what it does - it will do more the GTX3076R and that is good 'nough.
Wonder what do you think of using 3" DP from Full Race, or is 3.5" of significant benefit?
The Full Race 3" DP makes a very sharp turn out of the EFR turbo: am I missing anything or nothing worth stressing over in midrange?
i really want to believe the 7670 can do better, but i have yet to see it on any platform, at least for the twin scroll. i call up bw about every six months to ask them to incorporate their mft tech into a turbo slightly larger than a 7670. no willingness to do such a thing yet, but they did acknowledge in my most recent call that there is interest in this power range. bw moves pretty slow, so i wouldn't count on a new product anytime soon, however if anyone is excited by the prospect, email or call bw to express interest.
The EFR's really don't like to make power at high RPM at high P.R.'s, I believe because the turbine wheel is designed to be soo great at spool up/transient response it gives up a little much on the top end. I believe a GTX/PTE/FP turbo will make more peak power on an evo at 9k mm for mm of wheel than the EFR's. In any size. But I still prefer to have the response of the EFR 
Which is why I've had the 7670, 8374, and probably... move to the 9180. After that I'll have to buy something with a v engine so I can put two EFR's on it. 
Which is why I've had the 7670, 8374, and probably... move to the 9180. After that I'll have to buy something with a v engine so I can put two EFR's on it. 
For reference is the standard Garrett turbine wheel.
So, if using Ti-Al, the wheel has to be sized a bit larger in diameter to get the same flow as a turbine wheel out of inconel.
So an EFR 7163 is roughly the same power-wise as a GTX3071 which is a solid 500whp. The turbine wheel area ratio is (63mm/60mm)^2 = 1.10. The EFR 7670 is basically the same size as the GTX3576 which is a 600whp turbo. But from what all of you guys are saying, the EFR 7670 is more like 550-575whp. The turbine wheel area ratio between the 7670 and 3576 is (70mm/68mm)^2 = 1.06, so relatively less flow compared to the 7163/3071 comparison. EFR 8374 vs GTX3582, (74/68)^2 = 1.18 and both are ~750whp turbos; of course the 8374 has a smidge larger diameter compressor wheel vs the 3582.
Anyway, just my thoughts.
Last edited by spdracerut; May 17, 2015 at 08:45 PM.
Rt Ernie
Are you selling that 83/74 or 76/70?
Are you selling that 83/74 or 76/70?
BW did state that the MFT technology didn't scale well. Didn't really work when they tried to duplicate it in larger sizes... just worked at that size. At least that's what I remember being told 2-3 years ago when they just started talking about the 7163.
In my personal experience the Dynapack versus the Dynojet, they read identically up to around 450-500whp. Once they get to around 700, I've seen the same car put down 770 on a Dynpack which did 725 on a Dynapack (MKIV Supra I tuned) SAE corrected on both. So my current thought is that they start to deviate above 500hp and are off by as much as 45-50whp by the time you make it to 750. Which jives with my experience with the 7670 especially when compared to leet's 7670 numbers on the Dynapack. Scale that down a touch and you're at 580awhp, which is on par with what I saw on a DJ (with 285's and 10.5" wide ccw's)
The 8374 is probably what you want if you think you want the 7670. And if you think you want the 8374... you'll probably actually want the 9180. I'm about 4 hours of free time away from swapping to the 9180 and ditching the 8374. The EFR's really don't like to make power at high RPM at high P.R.'s, I believe because the turbine wheel is designed to be soo great at spool up/transient response it gives up a little much on the top end. I believe a GTX/PTE/FP turbo will make more peak power on an evo at 9k mm for mm of wheel than the EFR's. In any size. But I still prefer to have the response of the EFR Which is why I've had the 7670, 8374, and probably... move to the 9180. After that I'll have to buy something with a v engine so I can put two EFR's on it.
In my personal experience the Dynapack versus the Dynojet, they read identically up to around 450-500whp. Once they get to around 700, I've seen the same car put down 770 on a Dynpack which did 725 on a Dynapack (MKIV Supra I tuned) SAE corrected on both. So my current thought is that they start to deviate above 500hp and are off by as much as 45-50whp by the time you make it to 750. Which jives with my experience with the 7670 especially when compared to leet's 7670 numbers on the Dynapack. Scale that down a touch and you're at 580awhp, which is on par with what I saw on a DJ (with 285's and 10.5" wide ccw's)
The 8374 is probably what you want if you think you want the 7670. And if you think you want the 8374... you'll probably actually want the 9180. I'm about 4 hours of free time away from swapping to the 9180 and ditching the 8374. The EFR's really don't like to make power at high RPM at high P.R.'s, I believe because the turbine wheel is designed to be soo great at spool up/transient response it gives up a little much on the top end. I believe a GTX/PTE/FP turbo will make more peak power on an evo at 9k mm for mm of wheel than the EFR's. In any size. But I still prefer to have the response of the EFR
Which is why I've had the 7670, 8374, and probably... move to the 9180. After that I'll have to buy something with a v engine so I can put two EFR's on it. 
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That's an interesting thought, but the older series BW turbos (before Ti-Al) also had "large" turbine wheels for their flow size (compared to Garrett GT). For example the turbo that people called the "S256" had turbine wheel diameters the same as a Garrett P trim, which is big. I haven't checked out their "Air Werks" series turbos lately, but I imagine they are continuing the same trend. I always imagined it was mostly their design philosophy that was different - their design goals.
But I was specifically speaking to the general stated difficulty of casting TiAl; I believe it doesn't flow so well when poured. So I'm guessing that's why the blades are thicker which is a negative for flow and efficiency.
I really like the 3576- and have been using them here recently-
Im actually going to be running out 7163 EWG Vband kit with a 3071G TX Garrett sent us to try- and possibly a 3576GTX- I will report back if I get it done here shortly!
some interesting tidbits-
we have been chatting with the BW engineers about some design traits, future features etc- the 7163 was really designed to be compact yet perform similar to the 7670-
noone has accepted that- so... just this morning i had an evo X on the dyno with a T4 TS IWG 7670 on the dyno--
I overlayed it with our 7163 on the same model (X MR)- but with less mods-
the Open Scroll 7163 spooled the same- but made 40-50more whp - with 2.5 psi less boost-
the 7163 was around 425whp on 26 psi- the 7670 made 361whp at 28.5-
just info- on the smaller turbos than you are discussing-
I do feel I can make 550whp on the 7163 on my mustang dyno with a proper build-
cb
Im actually going to be running out 7163 EWG Vband kit with a 3071G TX Garrett sent us to try- and possibly a 3576GTX- I will report back if I get it done here shortly!
some interesting tidbits-
we have been chatting with the BW engineers about some design traits, future features etc- the 7163 was really designed to be compact yet perform similar to the 7670-
noone has accepted that- so... just this morning i had an evo X on the dyno with a T4 TS IWG 7670 on the dyno--
I overlayed it with our 7163 on the same model (X MR)- but with less mods-
the Open Scroll 7163 spooled the same- but made 40-50more whp - with 2.5 psi less boost-
the 7163 was around 425whp on 26 psi- the 7670 made 361whp at 28.5-
just info- on the smaller turbos than you are discussing-
I do feel I can make 550whp on the 7163 on my mustang dyno with a proper build-
cb
When the BW lineup was new, the 7670 "seemed" like the ideal turbo for the 4G63. But its results seem lackluster compared to the 7163 and 8374.
I just wished BW offered an 1.05 AR EWG (T4) 7163. Seems odd that they offer that housing for the 7064 and the 7670, but not the 7163
I just wished BW offered an 1.05 AR EWG (T4) 7163. Seems odd that they offer that housing for the 7064 and the 7670, but not the 7163
CBRD The turbo you guys need to be testing from garrett is the GTW 3476R 
AKA 5867
AKA 5867I really like the 3576- and have been using them here recently-
Im actually going to be running out 7163 EWG Vband kit with a 3071G TX Garrett sent us to try- and possibly a 3576GTX- I will report back if I get it done here shortly!
some interesting tidbits-
we have been chatting with the BW engineers about some design traits, future features etc- the 7163 was really designed to be compact yet perform similar to the 7670-
noone has accepted that- so... just this morning i had an evo X on the dyno with a T4 TS IWG 7670 on the dyno--
I overlayed it with our 7163 on the same model (X MR)- but with less mods-
the Open Scroll 7163 spooled the same- but made 40-50more whp - with 2.5 psi less boost-
the 7163 was around 425whp on 26 psi- the 7670 made 361whp at 28.5-
just info- on the smaller turbos than you are discussing-
I do feel I can make 550whp on the 7163 on my mustang dyno with a proper build-
cb
Im actually going to be running out 7163 EWG Vband kit with a 3071G TX Garrett sent us to try- and possibly a 3576GTX- I will report back if I get it done here shortly!
some interesting tidbits-
we have been chatting with the BW engineers about some design traits, future features etc- the 7163 was really designed to be compact yet perform similar to the 7670-
noone has accepted that- so... just this morning i had an evo X on the dyno with a T4 TS IWG 7670 on the dyno--
I overlayed it with our 7163 on the same model (X MR)- but with less mods-
the Open Scroll 7163 spooled the same- but made 40-50more whp - with 2.5 psi less boost-
the 7163 was around 425whp on 26 psi- the 7670 made 361whp at 28.5-
just info- on the smaller turbos than you are discussing-
I do feel I can make 550whp on the 7163 on my mustang dyno with a proper build-
cb
Found the link:
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/en/afte...owerRange.aspx
Last edited by lv05evo; May 20, 2015 at 11:33 PM. Reason: Spelling