My purpose there was not to promote a certain type of tuning, It was simply to clarify my previous post and the merits of a simple and safe method of slightly increasing boost levels over stock by modifying the taper function. As I stated before, It is my opinion that especially in the instance of our motors which as you yourself said are pretty strong internally compared to most, that tuning through timing advance while maintaining lower EGT temps is a very effective and safe method of making power. As for our stock turbo system, from what I've seen its efficiency is not nearly as great over 21psi as air starts to heat up.

 

No I thought your post was good. As for your comments your right increased timing is a way to make power. I personally dont think its as good as the mix other tuners (read most) use and we will see how far this departure goes in the future as we have seen this method implimented for the better part of six months instead of 15 years as the other more favored way. Please dont take that or any of my comments as an authority on the "safest, beast" way- its mearly what has been going on in 4G63 tuning.
The only thing I dont agree with is your underconfidence in the Factory turbo system. Our FMIC is larger than most all aftermarket DSM FMICs and our 16 g has a great hotside that is even more efficient than standard. 21 psi is still well in the efficiency plateau and thats not counting the charge cool from the FMIC and water spray

 

Maybe I came off a little overly critical of our stock turbo setup, which to me when functioning at boost levels near stock as setup is incredibly responsive and capable. In this discussion of "Mail Flashes" and tuning method though, I simply see boost increases as a less efficient way of making power on a near stock car. Now ofcourse to move toward the higher absolute levels of power on the stock turbo setup one would need to utilize increased boost levels, and less advance to make higher power in combination with other bolt on flow/intake modifications but to me this shouldn't apply to your average through the mail flash buyer, atleast it wouldn't to me as I leer toward the more conservative, fail safe side when tuning to higher levels on a modified platform, hence I wouldn't trust a mail flash on a highly modified car touching the limits of what the stock turbo system can achieve. Tit for Tat thats all it is.

 

OK its a good point but thats what I am saying is that we go with what we prefer and what MOST pros prefer is to use a good mix of all parameters as high ignition advance can get you in trouble Quick! BTW I dont want to turn this into much but when you say you leer toward the conservative you imply that others is wrong or unsafe. Thats not the case. In fact the dynoflash is usually used in conjuction with an MBC right? So we not only got some serious advance we have now a significant increase in boost.

So the only safe way out of this is to agree to leave it at

1) consumers should be more informed about actual tuning practices and how they are implemented in their system

2) Not make the serious mistake of thinking All EM solutions are the same (or even remotely an apple to apple comparo)

3) Not to buy based on price alone (weather the cheapest or most expensive)

4) Adhere to ther tuners recomendations for mods and boost and not go bout cheating or doing what so and so does

 

opened

 

Same here! I felt the same way. My thanks to you also!

 

This has been a great thread. Lots of good opinions and discussion. Plenty of good points to think about.

Someone mentioned beer in this anaolgy. That brings up an interesting point. Bud is made with rice; Miller is made with wheat. They both get me drunk just fine. Beer drinkers debate forever the rice vs. wheat issue, but both will get you drunk.

Many flash customers will not do much more than a flash and an exhaust. In that situation, this debate may be similar to the rice vs. wheat debate. Many have brought up excellent technical points that are worthy of consideration. For people that are not going to heavily tune, the differences between these flashes may not be as relevant. I know some will see this as an oversimplification, but if my mods are simple, maybe the situation is simple. With all this simple talk, I am feeling like Forest Gump.

 

Geez, who knew this would keep going, and going, and going....and far be it from me to stop it!
It has been, for the most part, informative, which is more I can say for some of these threads.
One last point (no, really ) In the absence of value, price is all that matters. If these are simply a commodity, then price IS all that matters. BUT, I seem to remember Shiv posting a while back and mentioning that he had driven all three, and he seemed to think blindfolded he could pick out each one. So obviously, they are doing different things--so much so that it is identifiable by seat of the pants test (trusting Shiv's opinion here). So to simply say "oh, it's all the same, just go with the cheapest" doesn't seem so logical to me.
The thing that sealed the deal for me was originally talking to all three, then going to 2 of their dyno days. The behavior on these boards, background of tuner, and the fact that only one of the vendors didn't say anything negative about the others helped tremendously. Pete's comment to me was simply they seem to be good guys, but here is what we do and why we do it this way. He did not once criticize the competitors methods or attack on any personal level. Good way to conduct yourself in business, I think.
Food for thought...
Beyond that, I think the guy who said choose the tuner you feel most comfortable with and follow their advice on what works with their stuff seems to make a whole lot of sense...

 

oh also for future reference i have the xflash and price was one determining factor for me. peace out

 

my only planned upgrades are a full turboback exhaust. i dont think i would notice much of a difference between them in that case correct?

 

Shiv has posted that these products feel totally different. I have posted that these products will feel very different. What leads you to believe that you wouldn't notice a difference?

-- DavidV

 

im not saying the flashes wont feel different in general. Im saying i dont think the different flashes will give extra gains than other flashes based on ur upgrades.

 

Some might argue that the feeling/smoothness/area under the curve/mildness on the hardware IS an extra gain

 

Some also might aruge that anything you can't see on a dyno sheet with repeatable and consistant pulls is imaginary and something more akin to the emperor's clothes

We are talking about adjusting ign timing a couple of degrees and setting the a/f at a certain ratio, BOTH of which can easily be read and verified with a OBD-II scanner and wideband 02 sensor. The way you talk, its like you are trying to sell ice to eskimos.

I think the best way to see the differnce on these various products is by looking at dyno sheets with a/f print outs and by reading customer impressions and seeing real track results

Maybe a magazine will sponsor a test - or maybe all 3 will agree to meet and tune on one car the same day ?

 

Youve already proposed a tuner meeting but not much interest. If you are insenuating that there is no difference in the real world were a different tuning approaches will yeild similar dyno results but vastly different road manners? I thought thats why you advocated street tuning so much.

How bout consistancy in the tune? Ignition Advanced cars can get "moody" as you know