11,000 RPM is so old news.......
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From: Raleigh, Transplanted from Toronto, Canada
Basically its not DB calling ET because he's afraid of what they are doing. 99% of the people on this forum will not be able to afford what they are doing (If it even becomes available). They are coming on here wowing people with what alot of us (myself included) was new tech and new records and such. As a for instance for the people coming on here talkign about ET doing a 13k rpm capable car.......I had no clue they were going to be destroking the motor to 1.6L and it was going to req alot of maintenance. There was no mention of that in those posts , I'm sure none of would even care about that type of setup. While 13k rpm is cool.....I can't think of a scenario where you would need high RPM and TQ-less power.
DB is educating us to not be fooled by someone doing something thats been done before. It would've been different if ET gave credit where it was due.
Seems to me that DB has pissed off some people with his "frankness" and at times his inability to be "politically correct". He's rude and a little ornery (ok understatement) but I've seen him be really helpful and do everything he can for a customer, I've seen him go further then most would for a customer (LeetEvo anyone).
The FACT is DB has accomplished and pioneered more stuff with 4G63's and regardless of the latest fad or trend he has stood the test of time. There has been many companies that have come and many have gone but BR still stands. There is a reason for that.
You can say what you want about him, what you CAN'T do is take away from his accomplishments.
ET didn't throw the first stone to some but the phrase "No Bull****, just results" def. applies. This one American customer of theres is going to have a very one off, exotic, cool *** Evo. One that no one will want to duplicate because of the money spent for the results achieved.
DB is educating us to not be fooled by someone doing something thats been done before. It would've been different if ET gave credit where it was due.
Seems to me that DB has pissed off some people with his "frankness" and at times his inability to be "politically correct". He's rude and a little ornery (ok understatement) but I've seen him be really helpful and do everything he can for a customer, I've seen him go further then most would for a customer (LeetEvo anyone).
The FACT is DB has accomplished and pioneered more stuff with 4G63's and regardless of the latest fad or trend he has stood the test of time. There has been many companies that have come and many have gone but BR still stands. There is a reason for that.
You can say what you want about him, what you CAN'T do is take away from his accomplishments.
ET didn't throw the first stone to some but the phrase "No Bull****, just results" def. applies. This one American customer of theres is going to have a very one off, exotic, cool *** Evo. One that no one will want to duplicate because of the money spent for the results achieved.
Ya know.............I kinda have OCD at times and get stuck on things that just drive me nuts. The video of the 11,000 rpm runs, it's really bugging me. It keeps getting posted and I took the time to look at it again.
I'd say I've actually studied it at this point. How is it a car making that much power that is on a normal stiff side wall street tire doesn't spin the tires at all? Watch the speedo and tach, neither of them have even a slight hint of tire spin and you can hear in the video there is no quick increase in traction. Now if it can hook like that with that much power on the street, getting one to hook at at strip, unprep'd or not, on a race tire, should be pretty easy I'd think.
I realize it's a dog box. The gearing is very odd to me though, maybe a rally box or something I am completely unfamiliar with. I know the RPM's drop with the PPG dog box gears and in the case of this video the RPM's are so far off from where they should be it could make a mini bike look like it rev's fast.
For example:
In the video 18 mph=3400 rpm. That according to our transmission spread sheets we have here, is an EVO8 first gear with a stock final drive. Looks perfect at that MPH vs. Speed.
Now, the car goes to the floor, accelerates (with not tire spin) and gets shifted at what is suppose to be 11,000 rpm......hmmm at 40 mph? Well there is the first problem. That same EVO8 first gear that was just running 18 mph at 3400 rpm is now running 40 mph at 11,000 rpm. Actually with an EVO8 first gear 40 mph is equal to 7400 rpm. Anyone else find that a bit odd?
Based on knowing 18 mph=3400 rpm I am calling out BULL**** on 1st gear, something is definitely not right.
From there I can't say what gear ratios are in the car as I have no steady state RPM vs MPH to reference. I will make some observations though:
In the video 2nd gear and 11,000 rpm is 70 mph. An EVO8 2nd gear does 70 mph at 8500 rpm.
In the video 3rd gear and 11,000 rpm is 105 mph. An EVO8 3rd gear does 105 mph at 9100 rpm.
In the video 4th gear and 11,000 rpm is 145 mph. An EVO8 4th gear does 145 mph at 9250 rpm.
With gearing that is CONSIDERABLY shorter than a stock EVO8 gear, which is what is portrayed in the video..................a guy sure would think that traction would be just a tad bit limited.....
Ah hell, what do I know?
I'd say I've actually studied it at this point. How is it a car making that much power that is on a normal stiff side wall street tire doesn't spin the tires at all? Watch the speedo and tach, neither of them have even a slight hint of tire spin and you can hear in the video there is no quick increase in traction. Now if it can hook like that with that much power on the street, getting one to hook at at strip, unprep'd or not, on a race tire, should be pretty easy I'd think.
I realize it's a dog box. The gearing is very odd to me though, maybe a rally box or something I am completely unfamiliar with. I know the RPM's drop with the PPG dog box gears and in the case of this video the RPM's are so far off from where they should be it could make a mini bike look like it rev's fast.
For example:
In the video 18 mph=3400 rpm. That according to our transmission spread sheets we have here, is an EVO8 first gear with a stock final drive. Looks perfect at that MPH vs. Speed.
Now, the car goes to the floor, accelerates (with not tire spin) and gets shifted at what is suppose to be 11,000 rpm......hmmm at 40 mph? Well there is the first problem. That same EVO8 first gear that was just running 18 mph at 3400 rpm is now running 40 mph at 11,000 rpm. Actually with an EVO8 first gear 40 mph is equal to 7400 rpm. Anyone else find that a bit odd?
Based on knowing 18 mph=3400 rpm I am calling out BULL**** on 1st gear, something is definitely not right.
From there I can't say what gear ratios are in the car as I have no steady state RPM vs MPH to reference. I will make some observations though:
In the video 2nd gear and 11,000 rpm is 70 mph. An EVO8 2nd gear does 70 mph at 8500 rpm.
In the video 3rd gear and 11,000 rpm is 105 mph. An EVO8 3rd gear does 105 mph at 9100 rpm.
In the video 4th gear and 11,000 rpm is 145 mph. An EVO8 4th gear does 145 mph at 9250 rpm.
With gearing that is CONSIDERABLY shorter than a stock EVO8 gear, which is what is portrayed in the video..................a guy sure would think that traction would be just a tad bit limited.....
Ah hell, what do I know?
Thanks Guys for answering my question...
I do think the way this car goes through the gear's is new and weird to me.. Thats why I originally asked that question about how the clutch could handle those shifts.
It really dosen't make that much as a difference as I 'am super cheap when it comes to buying parts and wouldn't get a ET part unless it was 3rd/4th hand or free
Thanks for the thread, Iam really interested about the video of that evo really being able to take down the cars they listed at high rates of speed.
I do think the way this car goes through the gear's is new and weird to me.. Thats why I originally asked that question about how the clutch could handle those shifts.
It really dosen't make that much as a difference as I 'am super cheap when it comes to buying parts and wouldn't get a ET part unless it was 3rd/4th hand or free
Thanks for the thread, Iam really interested about the video of that evo really being able to take down the cars they listed at high rates of speed.
Ya know.............I kinda have OCD at times and get stuck on things that just drive me nuts. The video of the 11,000 rpm runs, it's really bugging me. It keeps getting posted and I took the time to look at it again.
I'd say I've actually studied it at this point. How is it a car making that much power that is on a normal stiff side wall street tire doesn't spin the tires at all? Watch the speedo and tach, neither of them have even a slight hint of tire spin and you can hear in the video there is no quick increase in traction. Now if it can hook like that with that much power on the street, getting one to hook at at strip, unprep'd or not, on a race tire, should be pretty easy I'd think.
I realize it's a dog box. The gearing is very odd to me though, maybe a rally box or something I am completely unfamiliar with. I know the RPM's drop with the PPG dog box gears and in the case of this video the RPM's are so far off from where they should be it could make a mini bike look like it rev's fast.
For example:
In the video 18 mph=3400 rpm. That according to our transmission spread sheets we have here, is an EVO8 first gear with a stock final drive. Looks perfect at that MPH vs. Speed.
Now, the car goes to the floor, accelerates (with not tire spin) and gets shifted at what is suppose to be 11,000 rpm......hmmm at 40 mph? Well there is the first problem. That same EVO8 first gear that was just running 18 mph at 3400 rpm is now running 40 mph at 11,000 rpm. Actually with an EVO8 first gear 40 mph is equal to 7400 rpm. Anyone else find that a bit odd?
Based on knowing 18 mph=3400 rpm I am calling out BULL**** on 1st gear, something is definitely not right.
From there I can't say what gear ratios are in the car as I have no steady state RPM vs MPH to reference. I will make some observations though:
In the video 2nd gear and 11,000 rpm is 70 mph. An EVO8 2nd gear does 70 mph at 8500 rpm.
In the video 3rd gear and 11,000 rpm is 105 mph. An EVO8 3rd gear does 105 mph at 9100 rpm.
In the video 4th gear and 11,000 rpm is 145 mph. An EVO8 4th gear does 145 mph at 9250 rpm.
With gearing that is CONSIDERABLY shorter than a stock EVO8 gear, which is what is portrayed in the video..................a guy sure would think that traction would be just a tad bit limited.....
Ah hell, what do I know?
I'd say I've actually studied it at this point. How is it a car making that much power that is on a normal stiff side wall street tire doesn't spin the tires at all? Watch the speedo and tach, neither of them have even a slight hint of tire spin and you can hear in the video there is no quick increase in traction. Now if it can hook like that with that much power on the street, getting one to hook at at strip, unprep'd or not, on a race tire, should be pretty easy I'd think.
I realize it's a dog box. The gearing is very odd to me though, maybe a rally box or something I am completely unfamiliar with. I know the RPM's drop with the PPG dog box gears and in the case of this video the RPM's are so far off from where they should be it could make a mini bike look like it rev's fast.
For example:
In the video 18 mph=3400 rpm. That according to our transmission spread sheets we have here, is an EVO8 first gear with a stock final drive. Looks perfect at that MPH vs. Speed.
Now, the car goes to the floor, accelerates (with not tire spin) and gets shifted at what is suppose to be 11,000 rpm......hmmm at 40 mph? Well there is the first problem. That same EVO8 first gear that was just running 18 mph at 3400 rpm is now running 40 mph at 11,000 rpm. Actually with an EVO8 first gear 40 mph is equal to 7400 rpm. Anyone else find that a bit odd?
Based on knowing 18 mph=3400 rpm I am calling out BULL**** on 1st gear, something is definitely not right.
From there I can't say what gear ratios are in the car as I have no steady state RPM vs MPH to reference. I will make some observations though:
In the video 2nd gear and 11,000 rpm is 70 mph. An EVO8 2nd gear does 70 mph at 8500 rpm.
In the video 3rd gear and 11,000 rpm is 105 mph. An EVO8 3rd gear does 105 mph at 9100 rpm.
In the video 4th gear and 11,000 rpm is 145 mph. An EVO8 4th gear does 145 mph at 9250 rpm.
With gearing that is CONSIDERABLY shorter than a stock EVO8 gear, which is what is portrayed in the video..................a guy sure would think that traction would be just a tad bit limited.....
Ah hell, what do I know?
Shows over folks
Sorry to drag the topic back on to rods.
I built, not that is matter, three engines today. Two of which had TT's in them. The one set was balanced to 629 grams and the other set was 631 grams. The third was an aluminum rod 1g engine. 615 grams for the R&R's, OK 14 grams lighter.......I've never used them. I'll take 14 grams BUT, I stated this already. I HAVE NEVER-EVER END OF STORY HAD A MANLEY TT ROD BREAK. Not ONE, not in any situation. I have not had one bend either. THAT IS WHY I USE THE ROD.
Our 2.3RPM piston is very-very light. For a true street engine build, it can't get much lighter and make me feel good to sell it and plan on it being durable. Yes, I can shorten the skirt up more like "other" pistons posted but for a street engine like our customers want I don't feel it's a good idea for longevity.
We do have something new coming, been coming for about 8 months now, should see it after the first of the year and will be exclusive to us.....don't ask because I'm not talking but will be a nice addition to what we are doing on the 2.3RPM engines.
So, is the 2.3RPM engine ideal for 10,000 rpm? No, but there are factors when you actually BUILD engines and don't just post pictures of random **** that doesn't even fit in a 4G63 that won't allow "ideal". Fact is, the 2.3RPM is very-very popular. There is more to it than the parts choice keeping them happy. Did you see how there is a special rod listed for "stroker" applications? Did you see how I mentioned that ridiculous picture of the rod in the other thread and mentioned how funny it was because it won't physically even go in a 4g63 engine?! hahaha
Oh yes, I do remember Boost Solutions! Smoke and mirrors brother!! Do you guys remember Ferroro Kid's Ferrari mechanic that needed to completely re-engineer the entire 4g63 engine? hahaha The list of people that have come and gone in the last 20+ years and the stories, I need to write a book.
Our 2.3RPM piston is very-very light. For a true street engine build, it can't get much lighter and make me feel good to sell it and plan on it being durable. Yes, I can shorten the skirt up more like "other" pistons posted but for a street engine like our customers want I don't feel it's a good idea for longevity.
We do have something new coming, been coming for about 8 months now, should see it after the first of the year and will be exclusive to us.....don't ask because I'm not talking but will be a nice addition to what we are doing on the 2.3RPM engines.
So, is the 2.3RPM engine ideal for 10,000 rpm? No, but there are factors when you actually BUILD engines and don't just post pictures of random **** that doesn't even fit in a 4G63 that won't allow "ideal". Fact is, the 2.3RPM is very-very popular. There is more to it than the parts choice keeping them happy. Did you see how there is a special rod listed for "stroker" applications? Did you see how I mentioned that ridiculous picture of the rod in the other thread and mentioned how funny it was because it won't physically even go in a 4g63 engine?! hahaha
Oh yes, I do remember Boost Solutions! Smoke and mirrors brother!! Do you guys remember Ferroro Kid's Ferrari mechanic that needed to completely re-engineer the entire 4g63 engine? hahaha The list of people that have come and gone in the last 20+ years and the stories, I need to write a book.
That R&R rod I posted was a 156mm rod not a 150mm.
Manley state there 156mm Turbo Tuff's weigh 694g..... 79g per rod heavier or 316g extra on the rotating assembly.
I'm sure you will agree, that's a significant difference.
It is very impressive that you have not had 1 single Turbo Tuff failure though and I can totally understand why you choose to use them for your builds.
I am genuinely interested in what features your 2.3 RPM motors have to make them rev like that.
Do you care to share details on your special 2.3 RPM pistons? Who makes them for you? What differentiates them from your suppliers off the shelf item?
Dare I ask the question - why?
I understand a 2.3L 4g63 is a great all rounder motor but if your customers want more revs and a longer power band then a 2.2 ticks the boxes doesn't it?
Would you care to explain why you have developed your 2.3 RPM instead of a BR 2.2?
Thank you in advance.
Karl
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From: Clinton, NJ - Myrtle Beach, SC
I am all those things. The way I came up with the parts to build the 2.3RPM was this. I called all the companies out there who make internal parts for these engines and asked them to send us some stickers. All the companies that did we put in a box and then I covered the box with a pair of Jarrod's boxers (not briefs). I then put a rubber band around one leg hole so it wasn't accessible and the other I left open. Then Nick blind folded me and I reached in through the open leg hole and started pulling out stickers. The first crank company sticker I pulled, we used, then the first piston company sticker I pulled we used, so on and so on until we had enough company names to get all the stuff I needed.
This has actually been the way we've been doing it for 20+ years and it's worked out great. Now keep in mind, Jarrod hasn't always worked for me and neither has Nick. So I've used other people's boxers over the years and had other people blind fold me. I think you get the idea of how I come up with our combinations now.
I let WAY too many of our secrets out, this one is going to kill us, everyone is going to be able to do it now........
This has actually been the way we've been doing it for 20+ years and it's worked out great. Now keep in mind, Jarrod hasn't always worked for me and neither has Nick. So I've used other people's boxers over the years and had other people blind fold me. I think you get the idea of how I come up with our combinations now.
I let WAY too many of our secrets out, this one is going to kill us, everyone is going to be able to do it now........
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From: Raleigh, Transplanted from Toronto, Canada
Kins DB has already stated he is not going to divulge some details of his motor builds. he usually deals with JE so its probably safe to assume its a custom JE piston of some sort that he designed and they built.
And I agree with the above poster. If DB made those observations on the vid then can any of the ET supporters or ET themselves explain?
And I agree with the above poster. If DB made those observations on the vid then can any of the ET supporters or ET themselves explain?
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From: Clinton, NJ - Myrtle Beach, SC
Kins DB has already stated he is not going to divulge some details of his motor builds. he usually deals with JE so its probably safe to assume its a custom JE piston of some sort that he designed and they built.
And I agree with the above poster. If DB made those observations on the vid then can any of the ET supporters or ET themselves explain?
And I agree with the above poster. If DB made those observations on the vid then can any of the ET supporters or ET themselves explain?
I guess DB likes to keep the intellectual property of his engine building top secret then. If this is the case then that's fair enough. After all - who am I to question the mighty Bush?!
Last edited by Kins; Nov 15, 2011 at 02:42 PM.
Exactly....who are you to question Mr. Buschur?
I don't know that I owned anyone but the 1st gear for sure, 100% makes ZERO sense. The rest of the gears I have no idea on the ratios but they'd have to be some type of rally gear set to need that type of RPM to run those slow speeds.
David,
That R&R rod I posted was a 156mm rod not a 150mm.
Manley state there 156mm Turbo Tuff's weigh 694g..... 79g per rod heavier or 316g extra on the rotating assembly.
I'm sure you will agree, that's a significant difference.
Do you care to share details on your special 2.3 RPM pistons? Who makes them for you? What differentiates them from your suppliers off the shelf item?
Dare I ask the question - why?
I understand a 2.3L 4g63 is a great all rounder motor but if your customers want more revs and a longer power band then a 2.2 ticks the boxes doesn't it?
Would you care to explain why you have developed your 2.3 RPM instead of a BR 2.2?
That R&R rod I posted was a 156mm rod not a 150mm.
Manley state there 156mm Turbo Tuff's weigh 694g..... 79g per rod heavier or 316g extra on the rotating assembly.
I'm sure you will agree, that's a significant difference.
Do you care to share details on your special 2.3 RPM pistons? Who makes them for you? What differentiates them from your suppliers off the shelf item?
Dare I ask the question - why?
I understand a 2.3L 4g63 is a great all rounder motor but if your customers want more revs and a longer power band then a 2.2 ticks the boxes doesn't it?
Would you care to explain why you have developed your 2.3 RPM instead of a BR 2.2?
Our pistons for the 2.3RPM engine are built by JE and are 100% custom for us. From the pin, to the skirt, valve reliefs, dish design, compression ratio and even the ring pack we use, which is not supplied by JE.
A 2.2 is of no interest to me, I built this for the maximum torque I could make and that's why I wanted the 100mm stroke. I think the proof is in the combination, 725 whp 585 ft lbs at 32'ish psi of boost on our dyno and this weekend numerous runs showed just shy of 9900 rpm.