I can't stand getting sucked into useless debate so this is my last response:

First, I have only posted up info that was posted by COBB themselves. The only stuff I know about the AP is from them and the website and little bit of knowledge from the SUBY AP.

I did say that AP can do what ECUFlash can do....I guess I should have clarified...which I have done in numerous posts....that once Pro-Tune/Street-Tuner is out the AP will be able to match all the degrees that ECUflash has to offer. Cobb themselves has stated this....now in regards to your ??? on a more advanced MAF sensor and how the AP will respond...you're right I don't know everything there is to know about that...so obviously as COBB stated if that is desired by all of AP users they will develop it....I definitely had no intention of leading anyone astray by implying it is available right this second.

Going back thru this thread you've corrected nothing I've said from what I can tell....I've stated nothing that needed to be corrected...as all I've stated is COBB info and my personal responses to how the AP benefitted the EVO.

ANd go sue me for trying to help out my friends at IA. They are doing their best to provide info. They did me a favor and I in turn try to do them a favor by giving positive feedback on what for me has been a positive experience with the not only the AccessPORT, but on how IA Performance has taken care of the car.

Whatever, man in the end I really don't care.

I apologize for screwing around in this thread. I would hope we can get back on track

 

Wow, it appears a Mini Bomb went off in this thread. Let's all suck it up and keep it on task. In the end we all have common goals, to play with our toys. Plus, the internet sometimes misconstrues what we type since there is no tone, just smilely's CAPS LOCK, etc.

mrfred- Agreed, we've seen some scary stuff here too. I've also seen some good ones. Unfortunately, knock shortens the life of the rob bearings. Give it time, more and more 'rod knock' cases will start showing up. Same thing has happened with Subaru

To all:
The killer part is the AccessPORT comes with knock readout so the end user can ensure his map is safe for that vehicle. So even when a customer gets a ProTUNE they can still check their knock count to ensure everything is safe. Sadly, we have 91 octane out here, it does not take much to get that knock count to start rising.

Also, I believe once SEMA is over we shall see quite a few new parts and ideas released from COBB.

Stephen

 

I think what he was pointing out is that you can pretty much get the same results using ecuflash or with an AP. The only difference is that you have to pay 695 when you can just purchase a 90 dollar cable. Bottomline, is that for the evo your best to get a custom tune using ecuflash or by a certified protuner for AP. The price of the tune will be the same only thing is that you'll have to pay 695 more using AP while getting the same results using ecuflash and saving more money. Its more cost effective to just use ecuflash and its been proven time and time again. The way I see it since ecuflash came out all the piggyback systems kind of fall off the market like the utec, xede, safc2, emanage, and etc. For the price ecuflash gives you the same results for price of a cable and custom tune to get the best results.

 

You just said it right there! Non-professional ecuflash maps! If the map wasn't from a protuner why would it be good? Yes, joe blow has the ability to tune his own car. I would only use a map from a reputable tuner that has a proven record. Ecuflash was created to allow people to tune themselves at their own risk or you can have a pro do it for you to be safe! Pull a map from a reputable vendor that sells professional made maps and compare then.... Alot of the professional ecuflash tuners have cheap base maps to use that are reliable and they can custom tune it to your specs based on certain conditions.

 

I guess what I'm really looking for is cost benefit of using AP over ecuflash. You stated being able to flash different maps well you can do that with ecuflash using a cheap laptop which still is cheaper than getting an AP port. Then you mentioned it measures knock counts well get evoscan for 25 bucks can do that too and your still cheaper than getting an AP. Total cost 90 cable, 200 laptop, 25 evoscan, and hell throw in a cheap knock measurer of 150 or so and your at 465 which is still cheaper than AP and you can do what the AP does for less and get the same results!

Now if AP gives you lets say 20-30whp more than using ecuflash than I can justify paying $695. But from what you showed me I just don't see the cost of paying extra to get no increase in power over ecuflash! All I see is just a few extra features which for the price isn't really worth it when ecuflash, evoscan and a laptop can do the same!

For the comment about being cheap well I can easily afford the price of AP but I need to see the cost benefit in power to justify it! To this day I don't see it when whats currently avaliable can do the same for cheaper!

 

^ But keep in mind that if you decide to get rid of the AP for whatever reason (tired of it or selling the Evo), you could sell it and recoup at least a few hundred dollars back. Can't say the same about tunes and flashes that you pay for.

 

Yeah you could recoup some cost of the AP but were you just going to run off a base map whats the point of paying 695 to run off a generic map made for all evos when you should get a map made specific for your evo? To get the full benefit of the AP you would have to get it customed tuned for the price of that you can't get that back just like with ecuflash. If you want to recoup the cost of ecuflash sell the cable for 80 bucks! Bottomline is you'll have to get custom tuned either using ecuflash or AP to get the true benefit so you can't go there your still 695 in the hole!

 

But that's not entirely true. For one thing, custom tuning costs money, roughly $100 just for the map (like what Mellon does). You can't recoup that, but you can at least sell the Tactrix cable. And regarding the AccessPort, you don't need to get a custom-tuned map. You could, but one of the main points of the AP is that it has pre-loaded maps. Yes, they are somewhat generic, but the pre-loaded maps are for a certain type of Evo driver that, believe it or not, quite a few drivers can be classified under.

There are drivers out there who are stock but want to consider an ECU upgrade without getting any other hardware to minimize chances of getting pulled over for some questionable (and visible) mod. A Stage 1 map would work out quite well for someone like this. True, a custom tune would yield the best results, but in the case of a stock car, the differences won't be anything drastic. And when that person with the stock car decides to take it up a notch and get a TBE, then the Stage 2 map is ready to go. Once again, a custom tune would squeeze out a bit more power, but when all you have is pretty much a TBE (or at least a downpipe), the Stage 2 map is more than efficient. Then you still have the various maps you can switch to as you please... different octane levels, economy mode, etc., without having to re-tune through a tuner every single time.

However, there are the more hardcore guys who might have a setup that would make more use of a custom tune that would definitely outdo an off-the-shelf map. So for the guy who has MBC, intake, TBE, larger intercooler, cams, larger fuel pump, etc., then clearly a custom tune would be more suitable. But this crowd isn't necessarily who Cobb is trying to reach at launch, with the ProTuner stuff not yet being available and only the standard maps being ready for use. But given time, like the STI AP, the Evo AP will have a lot of different maps for various setups... different turbos, cams, etc.

Simply put, I think the AP's main demographic has always been people who follow a certain mod path and just want to flash their car as they mod but get it over with in one shot at a time without having to log stuff over and over and reflash their car time and time again. And for the people who want to tweak stuff themselves, it has that option. Yes, it's a little more expensive than ECUflash, but it's a different product. Look at it like this... the AP is like having an iPod with 2Pac's Greatest Hits album on it already on there, while the ECUflash is like owning all of 2Pac's CDs but you have a standard portable CD player to use. One has the essentials that you can switch to easily (but not everything) with the potential of adding more, while the plays exactly what you want since you're making your own custom mix, though at a little extra work in making the CD-R, plus even more work when you decide to make a new one because there are another few songs that you want to hear instead. (Obviously I'm a 2Pac fan.)

 

There are two main issues that I like to address:

1. It is really hard to have a generic map compete with a custom tuned map. Say you live in colorado at high altitude and you DLed one of the Cobb base maps and flashed it into your Evo. Then you took another Evo to an AP approved pro-tuner and had him custom tune it for that altitude. If the pro-tuner knows what he is doing, then the AP pro-tuned Evo will make more power on the dyno and be faster through the 1/4 mile than the Evo with the canned map.

Here in CA we get gas with different blends and I re-tune my car constantly becuase of the changing blends. A generic map cannot magically adapt to the differing gas blends that we have. It is a generic canned map.

I used to have an Xede for my old Evo 8 and I DLed a map from the vendor's website. That canned map was a disaster waiting to happen. There is guy in Honduras who was using these canned maps and he melted one of his spark plugs because of those maps. And that vendor is supposedly the best there is. I am not dissing Cobb in any way, I simply do not trust canned maps. Every Evo is different and every Evo functions in a different environment than another Evo. That is why you need a custom tuned map based on the weather and altitude conditons where you live.

2. The second issue is the cost effectiveness of the AP vs. Ecuflash/Evoscan. Both of them do the same thing and bothe of them have almost the same features. Yet I am expected to pay $945 for the AP and the ability to tune my own car vs. $365 that I will pay for Ecuflash/Evoscan/Tactrix/Laptop combo. With the AP you must have a computer, either a desktop or a laptop to DL the maps. So let us add $250 to the mix for a laptop for the AP. So the grand total to tune your own car with the AP is $1195 vs. $365 for Ecuflash/Evoscan/Tactrix/Laptop. That is an $830 difference. Why in the world should I pay more to get the same results?

One more thing to add. Ecuflash is OPENSOURCE while AP is not. There are a lot of very smart people who are doing ECU disassembly on aktivematrix forum and everyday they come out with something new for us. Just go to the Ecuflash forum and look at the patches that we can use: boost logging patch; direct boost control patch; NLTS patch; valet mode patch; multiple maps patch; KnockCEL patch.

Cobb is so guarded and secretive about their software. This limits an lengthens the development process. Just remember how long it has taken them to get the AP to the Evo market. With Ecuflesh EVERYONE who has computer knowledge and savvy can and will help bring innovations to ECU Tuning. Just a few names would suffice: mrfred, tephra, malibujack, l2r99gst, touringbubble, mixermatt, Evo_kid, Razorlab, Bez, and many more. And all this is done for FREE. They do it out of passion and not for money.

 

Originally posted by deeznuts:

But that's not entirely true. For one thing, custom tuning costs money, roughly $100 just for the map (like what Mellon does). You can't recoup that, but you can at least sell the Tactrix cable. And regarding the AccessPort, you don't need to get a custom-tuned map. You could, but one of the main points of the AP is that it has pre-loaded maps. Yes, they are somewhat generic, but the pre-loaded maps are for a certain type of Evo driver that, believe it or not, quite a few drivers can be classified under.

There are drivers out there who are stock but want to consider an ECU upgrade without getting any other hardware to minimize chances of getting pulled over for some questionable (and visible) mod. A Stage 1 map would work out quite well for someone like this. True, a custom tune would yield the best results, but in the case of a stock car, the differences won't be anything drastic. And when that person with the stock car decides to take it up a notch and get a TBE, then the Stage 2 map is ready to go. Once again, a custom tune would squeeze out a bit more power, but when all you have is pretty much a TBE (or at least a downpipe), the Stage 2 map is more than efficient. Then you still have the various maps you can switch to as you please... different octane levels, economy mode, etc., without having to re-tune through a tuner every single time.

However, there are the more hardcore guys who might have a setup that would make more use of a custom tune that would definitely outdo an off-the-shelf map. So for the guy who has MBC, intake, TBE, larger intercooler, cams, larger fuel pump, etc., then clearly a custom tune would be more suitable. But this crowd isn't necessarily who Cobb is trying to reach at launch, with the ProTuner stuff not yet being available and only the standard maps being ready for use. But given time, like the STI AP, the Evo AP will have a lot of different maps for various setups... different turbos, cams, etc.

Simply put, I think the AP's main demographic has always been people who follow a certain mod path and just want to flash their car as they mod but get it over with in one shot at a time without having to log stuff over and over and reflash their car time and time again. And for the people who want to tweak stuff themselves, it has that option. Yes, it's a little more expensive than ECUflash, but it's a different product. Look at it like this... the AP is like having an iPod with 2Pac's Greatest Hits album on it already on there, while the ECUflash is like owning all of 2Pac's CDs but you have a standard portable CD player to use. One has the essentials that you can switch to easily (but not everything) with the potential of adding more, while the plays exactly what you want since you're making your own custom mix, though at a little extra work in making the CD-R, plus even more work when you decide to make a new one because there are another few songs that you want to hear instead. (Obviously I'm a 2Pac fan.)



Evocharger's response:
I understand what your point is because the evo has so many different types of stage 1 or 2 with different brands of mods and etc its hard to get a decent one map fits all type deal. A generic map is simply just that and its better to get customed tuned even if your stock! Why... Not all stock evos were created equal! I can atest I saw a stock evo get custom tune and it was boosting like 15psi stock when its suppose to be like 19psi or something. Plus how many evos stay stock? Not many and those that put one mod or two ends up being more and then they need a custom tune to fit its specific cars needs. Shiv tried this with getting the xede and having different maps available for stage 1 or 2 and different octanes and look at it now........... The xede fell off since ecuflash came out! I just don't see AP being successful since it has to compete against the almightly free ecuflash!

 

I'm assuming that you don't check the Cobb website too often, otherwise you'd notice that they have off-the shelf maps for various octane (CA/NV/AZ 91, everyone else's 91, 93 and 100) as well as for high elevation. Plus I'm quite sure that Cobb still has a safety net for their maps, which is why they took so long (which I assume, as the release was delayed far beyond what I had hoped).
Like I said before, the MAIN targeted demographic for the AP was going to be the people who wanted a quick and easy route to flashing... i.e., just loading maps with the hand-held device, obviously at the cost of precise customization and getting each and every last horse. So for these people (who I assume will more than likely compose the bigger chunk of its purchasers), they won't need to buy the ProTuner software or a laptop (since as new maps get released, they can just hook up the AP directly to a computer). And for the guys who do really want to tune their Evos themselves have the choice of going with ECUflash to begin with or spending the extra dough for the ProTuner stuff if they like the AP so much.

 

For those of you who have just tuned into our debate, let me summarize this thread. Cobb, another great tuner has decided to expand their focus to the Evo community. CPA5 has posted his results using the AP. Brian H is quick to point out how superior and cost effective ecuflash is, as well as point out numerous grammatical errors within the post. What I see is that ecuflash is currently the best tuning method to date, but in time Cobb and the AP will be able to do the same (no one is buying it for canned maps only). As far as cost is concerned it is a $30,000+ car, who wants to argue over a couple hundred bucks. Everyone in here is guilty of spending tons of cash on their car for little or no performance gains ($1300 for titanium exhaust to save 10 lbs, JDM ******, fuzzy dice, ect.) to each his own. I'm sure in time Cobb will do for the Evo community what the great pioneers like Buschur, AMS, and Brian H have done. Disclaimer: Let me be the first to apologize if I have used poor punctuation, spelling, spacing, or grammar.

 

You are right about the elevation, but you are worng about the different blends of 91 octane. I am not talking about different octane maps, I am talking about different blends of 91 octane gas. Here in CA we have blends for winter and blends for summer and each blend has a different impact on performance.

I fail to understand why those who want a quick and easy route to flashing cannot do the same with Ecuflash at a fraction of the cost. Mellon has a simple how-to tutotrial and tghere are two other on Ecuflash. Here is the mellon one http://www.mellontuning.com/equipment.html It is not rocket science and it is as easy as using the AP. So you buy a canned map from a vendor and flash it into your ECU. With the AP, you DL a canned map from Cobb's website, you transfer it to the handheld unit and then flash it inot your ECU. Each one is as easy as the other.

So if you are one of those guys, then the cost of the AP is NOT justified. You will have to pay $945 when you can get the same results with Ecuflash for less than half the price.

 

I'll say this Cobb is king in the suby community and has a proven record there! But he has yet to prove himself in the evo community! I think its alittle late for the AP when it should have been around right after the evo came out. Ecuflash improves more and more as time goes by and for the price and performance you just can't beat it. I just don't see AP being a viable option with a 945 price tag attached to it! Hell, for a couple hundred more you could get a AEM and you should gain 30-40 more whp over stock ecu by removing the maf.

 

For your 1300 titanium exhaust point your paying for weight deduction at least your getting some performance. However, at the same time I can argue that with the AP you'll add weight since ecuflash is just the stock ecu itself (not that it matters but the same point). Bottomline, is that everything the AP does you can do with ecuflash, evoscan, and laptop and yield the same results for a lot less! Going back to your exhaust point you pay for less weight as with a regular exhaust it gives simliar gains but it weights more meaning it can't do everything the titanium exhaust does.