2014 STU Discussion!
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 16
Likes: 0
From: Superior, CO
I found some numbers for a stock 2003 350Z (Track)
TOTAL....3118 lbs
LF...849 lbs
RF...886 lbs
LR...697 lbs
RR...687 lbs
Front 1735 - 55.6%
Rear 1348 - 44.4%
Someone else also posted motion ratios for their 350Z
.688 F and .649 R (*squared)
Brian posted last year (STR trim)
Spring Rates: 1000/850. Wheel Rate = 473/358~ish(edit) (a typical EVO 10/12k setup's WR = 515/400~ish)
Power: 3100lbs (265HP and 250ftlbs of torque on a Dyno Dynamics)
My car recently weighed in at 3197lbs
Front 1980 lbs - 62%
Rear 1217 lbs - 38%
these are the numbers from our latest corner balance, spring of 2014. EVO IX GSR
275/35/18 RS3’s - tread width (measured on a 9.5" rim) = 10.2"
285/35/18 RS3’s - tread width (measured on a 10" rim) = 10.1"
245/40/17 RS3’s - tread width (measure on a 8.5" rim) = 9.1"
...math
TOTAL....3118 lbs
LF...849 lbs
RF...886 lbs
LR...697 lbs
RR...687 lbs
Front 1735 - 55.6%
Rear 1348 - 44.4%
Someone else also posted motion ratios for their 350Z
.688 F and .649 R (*squared)
Brian posted last year (STR trim)
Spring Rates: 1000/850. Wheel Rate = 473/358~ish(edit) (a typical EVO 10/12k setup's WR = 515/400~ish)
Power: 3100lbs (265HP and 250ftlbs of torque on a Dyno Dynamics)
My car recently weighed in at 3197lbs
Front 1980 lbs - 62%
Rear 1217 lbs - 38%
these are the numbers from our latest corner balance, spring of 2014. EVO IX GSR
275/35/18 RS3’s - tread width (measured on a 9.5" rim) = 10.2"
285/35/18 RS3’s - tread width (measured on a 10" rim) = 10.1"
245/40/17 RS3’s - tread width (measure on a 8.5" rim) = 9.1"
...math
It seems like you have collected some good info to start a conversation. Have you thought about talking to Brian or another well built 350Z owner about some testing? I'm sure the 350Z guys would be up for some back and forth testing. It might help the learning curve until there is some more data to show the AWD cars can or can't keep with the new RWD players.
Having driven several well built AWD STU cars and Brian's 350Z I think the difference in power and grip might not be as large as it may seem. I suspect Brian may be more of a performance factor than the weight, tires, or power.
Cheers,
Rob
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 55
Likes: 0
From: MD
Hey Doug/Gents,
It seems like you have collected some good info to start a conversation. Have you thought about talking to Brian or another well built 350Z owner about some testing? I'm sure the 350Z guys would be up for some back and forth testing. It might help the learning curve until there is some more data to show the AWD cars can or can't keep with the new RWD players.
Having driven several well built AWD STU cars and Brian's 350Z I think the difference in power and grip might not be as large as it may seem. I suspect Brian may be more of a performance factor than the weight, tires, or power.
Cheers,
Rob
It seems like you have collected some good info to start a conversation. Have you thought about talking to Brian or another well built 350Z owner about some testing? I'm sure the 350Z guys would be up for some back and forth testing. It might help the learning curve until there is some more data to show the AWD cars can or can't keep with the new RWD players.
Having driven several well built AWD STU cars and Brian's 350Z I think the difference in power and grip might not be as large as it may seem. I suspect Brian may be more of a performance factor than the weight, tires, or power.
Cheers,
Rob
Hey Doug/Gents,
It seems like you have collected some good info to start a conversation. Have you thought about talking to Brian or another well built 350Z owner about some testing? I'm sure the 350Z guys would be up for some back and forth testing. It might help the learning curve until there is some more data to show the AWD cars can or can't keep with the new RWD players.
Having driven several well built AWD STU cars and Brian's 350Z I think the difference in power and grip might not be as large as it may seem. I suspect Brian may be more of a performance factor than the weight, tires, or power.
Cheers,
Rob
It seems like you have collected some good info to start a conversation. Have you thought about talking to Brian or another well built 350Z owner about some testing? I'm sure the 350Z guys would be up for some back and forth testing. It might help the learning curve until there is some more data to show the AWD cars can or can't keep with the new RWD players.
Having driven several well built AWD STU cars and Brian's 350Z I think the difference in power and grip might not be as large as it may seem. I suspect Brian may be more of a performance factor than the weight, tires, or power.
Cheers,
Rob
That said, there's still more factors at play here than just the skill of a single driver.
1) The tire differences are substantial. 285s vs 245s may only be 40mm, but it's still enough to make a huge difference in handling. Especially in steady-state corners, where the Evo (and other front-heavy AWD cars) could use some assistance. If the 285s were not a substantial difference, as several people have suggested across a few forums, then the 2WD drivers would have little objection going down to 265s or 255s, right? But obviously, that's not the case.
2) The original goal of adding the 350Z and C5 was to increase STU participation. Regardless of where you think differences are coming from (tires, balance, power, driver skill) we've ended up with a bit of an unbalanced class which isn't exactly encouraging increased or more diverse participation in the class going forward. Like we've all said, you can't discount Brian Peter's driving abilities form this equation, but at the same time we can't just ignore a lot of very lopsided results when increasing class participation was the entire purpose of the changes in the first place.
3) The current ruleset and recent changes still leave the Evo X and GR STI at a huge disadvantage. Honestly, I'm not convinced they'll ever be competitive with the lighter Evo VIII/IX and GD STI, but given that they've been extremely popular with a new generation of drivers it's certainly worth exploring options that bring them into the fold. The single biggest driver for those cars is, AFAICT, more tire.
Evolved Member
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 535
Likes: 0
From: Dallas
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone here is trying to downplay Brian Peter's skill in this whole equation. In fact, if you'll go back through the posts I expect you'd find that each of us has specifically acknowledged that he's an incredibly good driver.
That said, there's still more factors at play here than just the skill of a single driver.
1) The tire differences are substantial. 285s vs 245s may only be 40mm, but it's still enough to make a huge difference in handling. Especially in steady-state corners, where the Evo (and other front-heavy AWD cars) could use some assistance. If the 285s were not a substantial difference, as several people have suggested across a few forums, then the 2WD drivers would have little objection going down to 265s or 255s, right? But obviously, that's not the case.
2) The original goal of adding the 350Z and C5 was to increase STU participation. Regardless of where you think differences are coming from (tires, balance, power, driver skill) we've ended up with a bit of an unbalanced class which isn't exactly encouraging increased or more diverse participation in the class going forward. Like we've all said, you can't discount Brian Peter's driving abilities form this equation, but at the same time we can't just ignore a lot of very lopsided results when increasing class participation was the entire purpose of the changes in the first place.
3) The current ruleset and recent changes still leave the Evo X and GR STI at a huge disadvantage. Honestly, I'm not convinced they'll ever be competitive with the lighter Evo VIII/IX and GD STI, but given that they've been extremely popular with a new generation of drivers it's certainly worth exploring options that bring them into the fold. The single biggest driver for those cars is, AFAICT, more tire.
That said, there's still more factors at play here than just the skill of a single driver.
1) The tire differences are substantial. 285s vs 245s may only be 40mm, but it's still enough to make a huge difference in handling. Especially in steady-state corners, where the Evo (and other front-heavy AWD cars) could use some assistance. If the 285s were not a substantial difference, as several people have suggested across a few forums, then the 2WD drivers would have little objection going down to 265s or 255s, right? But obviously, that's not the case.
2) The original goal of adding the 350Z and C5 was to increase STU participation. Regardless of where you think differences are coming from (tires, balance, power, driver skill) we've ended up with a bit of an unbalanced class which isn't exactly encouraging increased or more diverse participation in the class going forward. Like we've all said, you can't discount Brian Peter's driving abilities form this equation, but at the same time we can't just ignore a lot of very lopsided results when increasing class participation was the entire purpose of the changes in the first place.
3) The current ruleset and recent changes still leave the Evo X and GR STI at a huge disadvantage. Honestly, I'm not convinced they'll ever be competitive with the lighter Evo VIII/IX and GD STI, but given that they've been extremely popular with a new generation of drivers it's certainly worth exploring options that bring them into the fold. The single biggest driver for those cars is, AFAICT, more tire.
I have no doubt in my mind that the 350z is a top performer in the class. Obviously BP has shown what a top driven car can do. That's doesn't guarantee him a win, and it certainly doesn't mean the class is dead. I really hope that the top STU awd drivers (including Geoff) show up and help us benchmark the real performance. Not showing up because there is now a new competitor is really doing the sport and class a disservice.
And everything else is really just whining. No offense, but the sky hasn't fallen yet. Autocross is enjoyable because it's unpredictable. Anything can happen. Like an M3 winning when they were supposed to dead in the class
that's just me
Evolving Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 441
Likes: 33
From: Seattle
If it were a 9 hour drive I'd be there in a heartbeat, but's it not, and the level of commitment to make that trip is beyond our means/desires at this time. (not that I consider myself a "top stu driver" anyways). I feel ya though, the potential lack of benchmarking is not going to help our cause, that is for sure.
The problem with this entire statement is it's timing. Until the 2014 Nationals is in the books, no one really knows how the class is going to stack up. This is no different than ESP in 2005, or BSP in 2006. People jumped to conclusions based on some tour results and a lot of hysteria. The classes suffered. And ultimately, once the panic subsided the classes returned to diversity and competition.
I have no doubt in my mind that the 350z is a top performer in the class. Obviously BP has shown what a top driven car can do. That's doesn't guarantee him a win, and it certainly doesn't mean the class is dead. I really hope that the top STU awd drivers (including Geoff) show up and help us benchmark the real performance. Not showing up because there is now a new competitor is really doing the sport and class a disservice.
And everything else is really just whining. No offense, but the sky hasn't fallen yet. Autocross is enjoyable because it's unpredictable. Anything can happen. Like an M3 winning when they were supposed to dead in the class
I have no doubt in my mind that the 350z is a top performer in the class. Obviously BP has shown what a top driven car can do. That's doesn't guarantee him a win, and it certainly doesn't mean the class is dead. I really hope that the top STU awd drivers (including Geoff) show up and help us benchmark the real performance. Not showing up because there is now a new competitor is really doing the sport and class a disservice.
And everything else is really just whining. No offense, but the sky hasn't fallen yet. Autocross is enjoyable because it's unpredictable. Anything can happen. Like an M3 winning when they were supposed to dead in the class
