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I'm not so sure about that, every car that I've been in that was equipped with DSG seemed to be very jerky when shifting. However maybe the Evo X will be different? I guess its definitely possible to automatically do rev matching with a automated clutch system. The idea still disgusts me because of all the extra parts, complexity, and weight. Old school manual shifting FTW =)
It is more complex, I agree with that point.. There is also extra weight, but probably not as much as you think.. I looked it up on the GTi and it wasn't bad, if I recall correctly the DSG equipped car was 60lbs heavier than the traditional manual.
Unfortunately old school manual shifting is FTL, otherwise F1 and WRC would use the old school methods. It is open to debate whether a DSG/SMG style transimission is more or less engaging than a regular manual transmission from a driving perspective, but it a fact that all else being equal, a semi automatic is faster around a track than a manual.
Keep in mind that while the car may exhibit better acceleration do to the paddle shifting, it will also experience LOSS IN CONTROL due to there being no clutch pedal. What do I mean by loss in control? No one will be able to heel to toe without the clutch pedal (or do any kind of rev matching for that matter). This is a very big problem for performance driving, and is not something to be overlooked. Every time you click that little shift paddle the entire car jerks as its automatically slammed into the next gear. Do that a few times while at the limit of adhesion and you might find yourself in a wall.
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Don't listen to sonicnofadz. He rarely knows what he's talking about. He also has this weird irrational hatred towards the Evo X. I'm pretty sure even if the Evo X is better than the current Evo, he will automatically says it sucks.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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From: minneapolis
One of my points is that the revs need to come down regardless of how quickly you shift up. This means the throttle needs to be close (or at least reduced) anyway. Nothing different to a plain manual.
Like I said, you leave 5th at, say 5k rpm you when you slot it into 6th, it will need to be at something less than 5k rpm. Whatever that rpm is depends on the ratio of the gears but it has to be less. How does an engine lose revs? The throttle is reduced/closed. Sure, if they're clever enough, they can reduce the throttle by just the right amount for the time it takes between gears, but since the shift time is so short - milliseconds - i doubt that it's much different than actually closing the throttle. Roughly the same effect can be achieved with a plain manual and competent shifting.
Perhaps the throttle s closed for a shorter time than with a plain manual, but unless you're comparing it to shifting really slowly, form the perspective of revs they're pretty much the same. The improvement felt by the driver is mainly due to the more continuous nature of the gearchange rather than anything lag related.
p.s. the driver doesn't lift the pedal, but the computer does.
p.p.s. note that in the rather long post, i defined 'lag' to be a general delay and not turbo/gas exchange specific. also, the lifting throttle thing i mentioned in an earlier post also. since this really isn't a thread about bov's and that sort of thing, i tried to avoid mentioning specifics. the point is that revs have to drop, throttle has to close in both the normal and dsg type. how much this drops, and how long the throttle is closed for depends on the shift speed AND the gearing AND turbo/engine combination. yes, the blown off air will cause a drop in boost, but so would too 'spaced out' ratios. granted i did not mention the gas flows, but 'totally wrong' imo, is somewhat not appropriate.
Like I said, you leave 5th at, say 5k rpm you when you slot it into 6th, it will need to be at something less than 5k rpm. Whatever that rpm is depends on the ratio of the gears but it has to be less. How does an engine lose revs? The throttle is reduced/closed. Sure, if they're clever enough, they can reduce the throttle by just the right amount for the time it takes between gears, but since the shift time is so short - milliseconds - i doubt that it's much different than actually closing the throttle. Roughly the same effect can be achieved with a plain manual and competent shifting.
Perhaps the throttle s closed for a shorter time than with a plain manual, but unless you're comparing it to shifting really slowly, form the perspective of revs they're pretty much the same. The improvement felt by the driver is mainly due to the more continuous nature of the gearchange rather than anything lag related.
p.s. the driver doesn't lift the pedal, but the computer does.
p.p.s. note that in the rather long post, i defined 'lag' to be a general delay and not turbo/gas exchange specific. also, the lifting throttle thing i mentioned in an earlier post also. since this really isn't a thread about bov's and that sort of thing, i tried to avoid mentioning specifics. the point is that revs have to drop, throttle has to close in both the normal and dsg type. how much this drops, and how long the throttle is closed for depends on the shift speed AND the gearing AND turbo/engine combination. yes, the blown off air will cause a drop in boost, but so would too 'spaced out' ratios. granted i did not mention the gas flows, but 'totally wrong' imo, is somewhat not appropriate.
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From: Bangkok
If you knew as much about cars as you pretend to, then you would know that most cars just cut the ignition to drop the RPM and downshift, so the throttle does not close. And who the hell cares if you drop out of the boost range if you shift at 5k? Obviously you aren't trying to go fast if you aren't revving the engine out to near redline. And the talk of "spaced out ratios", what EVO do you know of that has widely spaced ratios?
You can cut ignition or do whatever you like, but there will be less gas going out through the exhaust and there will be reduced airflow into the engine, thus a reduction/interruption in the inlet air flow. So the turbine will still feel a similar effect to a throttle closing/reducing. You can do all sorts of things, but at the end of the day a reduced air flor rate goes into the engine as the revs decrease so results are similar.
And FWIW, DOWNshift to me means going to a gear with a LOWER number - 3rd to 2nd. And when you do that you don't drop the RPM. If you do you'll just bog down and so on. The most recent point we're talking about here is UPshifting. At least I'll pretend to know this much.
The part in BOLD is why my last post was so darn long. What I was trying to say is that if you shift at 5k, you DON'T drop out of the boost range (in any significant way). So you won't feel much lag even with a plain manual. Whether it's DSG or not makes no difference. Now if you shift early (as one does sometimes) and leave the boost 'zone' you're out of it regardless of whether you're equipped with DSG or not. So, in this case DSG does NOT eliminate lag. It has nothign to do with whether you're trying to go fast or not, it's to do with what happens if you simply just hoof the throttle as you're cruising.
The 'sapced out' ratio really shows that you haven't been reading. What I was trying to point out is that if your 'lag' problem is a result of your ratios being mismatched having DSG won't help. The revs will have to drop too much cos it's dictated by the ratios of the gears and not the method of shifting the gears. So if the problem exists with a manual then it will continue to exist when equipped with a DSG system (if same ratios are kept). So, again, DSG doesn't eliminate the experienced lag. I was not talking about evo's in particular but it could apply also - for example, if you tune your engine and choose your turbo such that it only makes power over a narrow range and you're on stock ratios. Those ratios will effectively be too far apart for your powerband.
Finally, I don't know a great deal about cars. But I know some. I also know a lot about engineering and this is pretty basic as far as I'm know. DSG is a good system and I like it a lot. It does a lot of good things but it doesn't have a lot to do with lag as far as I can see.
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Joined: Nov 2003
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From: Bangkok
Just in case anyone else wants to quote my posts, please just cut out the middle or something. They're long and I'm sorry for that. Quoting them just makes it silly. I'm not the kind of a$$ who goes back to change my posts so don't worry about cutting.
Arg...all things being equal (including gear ratios), sequential manuals and Autos have a crap-ton less lag between shifts than standards because you never blow off your boost and the time between shifts is greatly reduced...end of story...thanks for playing but you are simply wrong...
