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New Supra Specs and Pricing

 
Old Jan 17, 2019, 07:35 PM
  #91  
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Civics used to be great track cars, due to the double wishbone setup. Once they went to struts... well, they do okay, but I've never heard them being bragged about like before. The CTR is an exception but that has a fancier setup, so....
We were sad when they went to the strut.
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Old Jan 17, 2019, 07:44 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by kaj View Post
Civics used to be great track cars, due to the double wishbone setup. Once they went to struts... well, they do okay, but I've never heard them being bragged about like before. The CTR is an exception but that has a fancier setup, so....
We were sad when they went to the strut.
well... a mcstrut civic just happens to currently holds the overall lap record at multiple tracks right now... but thats more due to aero than suspension design
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Old Jan 17, 2019, 07:53 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by warmmilk View Post
everything about this statement is false. one can argue that a good mcstrut setup is harder to setup/design to keep it from losing camber on compression like a cheap/crap mcstrut design. a cheap/crap is easy, but its crap... and the exact opposite is true about which setup is more picky about ride height and roll centers. On top of that, McStrut setups are a lot more sensitive to scrub radius changes

like I said above, the only cons of a double wishbone setup is costs and space.
I would agree to disagree. There is a lot less going on with a strut setup since you are missing a top arm. The top arm is the strut. Have you ever designed a double wishbone setup from scratch? I have. It really sucked. Example, you raise the mounting point on the top arm one inch. Camber gain, camber drop, bump steer and roll center all change at the same time. I do agree that the mcstrut setup is more sensitive to scrub radius since it pivots on the strut/top arm.
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Old Jan 18, 2019, 09:44 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Lumpy Sticks View Post
I would agree to disagree. There is a lot less going on with a strut setup since you are missing a top arm. The top arm is the strut. Have you ever designed a double wishbone setup from scratch? I have. It really sucked. Example, you raise the mounting point on the top arm one inch. Camber gain, camber drop, bump steer and roll center all change at the same time. I do agree that the mcstrut setup is more sensitive to scrub radius since it pivots on the strut/top arm.
Same goes for mcstrut if you move any mounts around...lol. For example, moving the top of the strut backwards for more caster causes bumpsteer changes.

Double wishbone is superior, end of story. Yes, there are "improved" mcstrut systems, but they still aren't as good as properly designed double wishbone. This is why all purpose built race cars use double wishbone.
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Old Jan 18, 2019, 10:07 AM
  #95  
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straight from wikipedia

"The double wishbone suspension provides the engineer more design choices than some other types do. It is fairly easy to work out the effect of moving each joint, so the kinematics of the suspension can be tuned easily and wheel motion can be optimized. It is also easy to work out the loads that different parts will be subjected to which allows more optimised lightweight parts to be designed. They also provide increasing negative camber gain all the way to full jounce travel, unlike the MacPherson strut, which provides negative camber gain only at the beginning of jounce travel and then reverses into positive camber gain at high jounce amounts."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double...one_suspension
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Old Jan 18, 2019, 10:11 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by letsgetthisdone View Post
Same goes for mcstrut if you move any mounts around...lol. For example, moving the top of the strut backwards for more caster causes bumpsteer changes.

Double wishbone is superior, end of story. Yes, there are "improved" mcstrut systems, but they still aren't as good as properly designed double wishbone. This is why all purpose built race cars use double wishbone.
Agreed! Hence the reason why I built a double wishbone setup for my Bug instead of using struts. It works fantastic and I have endless possibilities for adjustment. I wish more manufactures would use a double wishbone from the factory.
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Old Jan 18, 2019, 12:56 PM
  #97  
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In the end, what it comes down to is, Toyota outsourced the car.
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Old Jan 18, 2019, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by barneyb View Post
In the end, what it comes down to is, Toyota outsourced the car.
I didn't think of this till I read it, I mean yes, obviously Toyota outsourced the car... but maybe the reason for the no manual option is because bmw wanted to keep that part to itself... not willing to share to make sure that they get the enthusiast buyer...
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Old Jan 18, 2019, 05:29 PM
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curious if it has an lsd - as typically only M cars get those, which obviously the z4 is not
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Old Jan 18, 2019, 05:33 PM
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So, if you are interested into getting into the BMW camp, is this a good entry point? We're talking initial price and price of parts. I once owned a Plymouth Laser which was also sold as an Eagle Talon and Mitsubishi Eclipse. My local Plymouth dealer didn't stock parts but they were good about ordering until Plymouth disappeared. I wonder how Toyota will be in this regard. Once out of warranty Toyota might be a pocketbook friendlier place for service than BMW.
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Old Jan 18, 2019, 07:00 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by barneyb View Post
So, if you are interested into getting into the BMW camp, is this a good entry point? We're talking initial price and price of parts. I once owned a Plymouth Laser which was also sold as an Eagle Talon and Mitsubishi Eclipse. My local Plymouth dealer didn't stock parts but they were good about ordering until Plymouth disappeared. I wonder how Toyota will be in this regard. Once out of warranty Toyota might be a pocketbook friendlier place for service than BMW.
Would be interesting if you get the parts at Toyota prices vs BMW (though "Supra" probably still = premium) similar to how I score some Evo parts cheaper under other manufacturer names.
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Old Jan 19, 2019, 05:30 AM
  #102  
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All you Americaaans are missing the point, this car hasnt been built for tuner car heads like you guys, its a marketing exercise created by millenials, aimed at rich kids who used to play computer games in which the supra was always faster and on youtube the supra is always faster!!! OK now they get the chance for daddy to buy them a Supra and park it at highschool and all the other kids go hey thats fully sick dude just like on the fast and the furious dude way cool. That's it ok nothing more, they sell a couple of mil around the world then cease production, job well done, now lets go create a new Celica turbo SUV next and so on and on and on it goes!!!
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Old Jan 19, 2019, 05:44 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Jonno99 View Post
All you Americaaans are missing the point, this car hasnt been built for tuner car heads like you guys, its a marketing exercise created by millenials, aimed at rich kids who used to play computer games in which the supra was always faster and on youtube the supra is always faster!!! OK now they get the chance for daddy to buy them a Supra and park it at highschool and all the other kids go hey thats fully sick dude just like on the fast and the furious dude way cool. That's it ok nothing more, they sell a couple of mil around the world then cease production, job well done, now lets go create a new Celica turbo SUV next and so on and on and on it goes!!!
yeah, thats why i'm all pissed about it. also I'm not american
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Old Jan 19, 2019, 06:20 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Jonno99 View Post
All you Americaaans are missing the point, this car hasnt been built for tuner car heads like you guys, its a marketing exercise created by millenials, aimed at rich kids who used to play computer games in which the supra was always faster and on youtube the supra is always faster!!! OK now they get the chance for daddy to buy them a Supra and park it at highschool and all the other kids go hey thats fully sick dude just like on the fast and the furious dude way cool. That's it ok nothing more, they sell a couple of mil around the world then cease production, job well done, now lets go create a new Celica turbo SUV next and so on and on and on it goes!!!
Bitter much? Your theory of "rich kids" in high school that "use to play computer games" as a target for a 50k plus car seems pretty dumb for a company as smart as Toyota. Those damn kids and their internets am I right?

I think if anything this car is for millennials who grew up with the Supra and don't have kids. Most of the stuff that puts the Supra on my radar is drag racing related, and in that context a slush box makes perfect sense.

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Old Jan 19, 2019, 10:40 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Lumpy Sticks View Post
Have you ever designed a double wishbone setup from scratch?
I have, its not that complicated. No worse than a proper MacStrut level of analysis and variable balance. I can get a full deg of camber gain per inch on an Evo if I want with slider axis angles, but I also would have Yuuuugggee SAI.

Finding the supra as MacStrut, which I called from the first spy pics I saw of it on track, was a big let down. Though at the end of the day, most Double wishbone setups from the factory are pretty comprimised by space and other needs. You have to look at basically a miata or lotus to find a good starting point. Though I would still rather work with double wishbone as a baseline.
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