ATTN: FP Red & Black Users - What You Need to Know About Oil
When Andy gets back on it, maybe he can explain to us why the Amsoil 10w-40 AMO doesn't have friction modifiers! "Making it ideal for motorcycles" and other wet clutch applications.
I thought we had pretty much agreed earlier that friction modifiers were a good thing and not to use wet clutch or motorcycle oils because they don't have 'em. Otherwise, I think AMO is one I would use.
The other thing the Amsoil guy could probably dig up is the zinc and phos numbers for the european 5w-40 Amsoil, and does that one have friction modifiers?
I thought we had pretty much agreed earlier that friction modifiers were a good thing and not to use wet clutch or motorcycle oils because they don't have 'em. Otherwise, I think AMO is one I would use.
The other thing the Amsoil guy could probably dig up is the zinc and phos numbers for the european 5w-40 Amsoil, and does that one have friction modifiers?
Newbie
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: croatia
How about Silkolene PRO S which is suposed to be mixture between group IV (PAO) and group V (ester) based oils?
c/p:
Esters (Group V)
All jet engines are lubricated with synthetic esters, and have been for 50 years, but these expensive fluids only started to appear in petrol engine oils about 20 years ago. Thanks to their aviation origins, the types suitable for lubricants (esters also appear in perfumes; they are different!) work well from –50 degC to 200 degC, and they have a useful extra trick.
Due to their structure, ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is “boundary” rather than “hydrodynamic”, i.e. a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surface apart. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the “hydrodynamic” film.
Synthetic Hydrocarbons or POA’s (Poly Alpha Olefins Group V)
These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with esters, they work very well at low temperatures, and equally well when the heat is on, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert, and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless “boundary” lubricants, with LESS load carrying ability than a mineral oil. They depend entirely on the correct chemical enhancements.
PAO’s work best in combination with esters. The esters assist load carrying, reduce friction, and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the PAO’s act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and oxidant agents, and foam suppressants. Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the esters in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.
HTHS - High temperature High shear A relatively new oil test/specification, the oil is subjected to high temperature 150C and is mechanically sheared at 1 x 10^6 per second. A value of 2.8 or is considered the minumum for normal bearing wear. Here are some HTHS numbers on well known oils, the higher the number the more shear stable the oil; 4's and 5's are excellent numbers and demonstrate basestock quality e.g. Silkolene and Motul.
Mobil 1 0W40 HTHS 3.6
Castrol RS 10w-60 HTHS 3.7
Castrol RS 0w-40 HTHS 3.7
Silkolene PRO S 5w-40 HTHS 4.07
Motul 300V 10w-40 HTHS 4.19
Motul 300V 5w-40 HTHS 4.51
Redline 5w40 HTHS 4.6
Redline 10W40 HTHS 4.7
Mobil 1 15w-50 HTHS 5.11
Silkolene PRO S 10w-50 HTHS 5.11
Silkolene PRO R 15w-50 HTHS 5.23
Motul 300V 15w-50 HTHS 5.33
Redline 15W50 HTHS 5.8
c/p:
Esters (Group V)
All jet engines are lubricated with synthetic esters, and have been for 50 years, but these expensive fluids only started to appear in petrol engine oils about 20 years ago. Thanks to their aviation origins, the types suitable for lubricants (esters also appear in perfumes; they are different!) work well from –50 degC to 200 degC, and they have a useful extra trick.
Due to their structure, ester molecules are “polar”; they stick to metal surfaces using electrostatic forces. This means that a protective layer is there at all times, even during that crucial start-up period. This helps to protect cams, gears, piston rings and valve train components, where lubrication is “boundary” rather than “hydrodynamic”, i.e. a very thin non-pressure fed film has to hold the surface apart. Even crank bearings benefit at starts, stops or when extreme shock loads upset the “hydrodynamic” film.
Synthetic Hydrocarbons or POA’s (Poly Alpha Olefins Group V)
These are, in effect, very precisely made equivalents to the most desirable mineral oil molecules. As with esters, they work very well at low temperatures, and equally well when the heat is on, if protected by anti-oxidants. The difference is, they are inert, and not polar. In fact, on their own they are hopeless “boundary” lubricants, with LESS load carrying ability than a mineral oil. They depend entirely on the correct chemical enhancements.
PAO’s work best in combination with esters. The esters assist load carrying, reduce friction, and cut down seal drag and wear, whilst the PAO’s act as solvents for the multigrade polymers and a large assortment of special compounds that act as dispersants, detergents, anti-wear and oxidant agents, and foam suppressants. Both are very good at resisting high-temperature evaporation, and the esters in particular will never carbonise in turbo bearings even when provoked by anti-lag systems.
HTHS - High temperature High shear A relatively new oil test/specification, the oil is subjected to high temperature 150C and is mechanically sheared at 1 x 10^6 per second. A value of 2.8 or is considered the minumum for normal bearing wear. Here are some HTHS numbers on well known oils, the higher the number the more shear stable the oil; 4's and 5's are excellent numbers and demonstrate basestock quality e.g. Silkolene and Motul.
Mobil 1 0W40 HTHS 3.6
Castrol RS 10w-60 HTHS 3.7
Castrol RS 0w-40 HTHS 3.7
Silkolene PRO S 5w-40 HTHS 4.07
Motul 300V 10w-40 HTHS 4.19
Motul 300V 5w-40 HTHS 4.51
Redline 5w40 HTHS 4.6
Redline 10W40 HTHS 4.7
Mobil 1 15w-50 HTHS 5.11
Silkolene PRO S 10w-50 HTHS 5.11
Silkolene PRO R 15w-50 HTHS 5.23
Motul 300V 15w-50 HTHS 5.33
Redline 15W50 HTHS 5.8
Urk!
I just passed 14k miles on my FPBlack setup using Mobile1 15w50! I've been a bit paranoid and check the turbo for shaft play at every 3k Oil change. So far no signs of abnormal play in the shaft. Up to this point, I've been convinced that I have a daily driver combination that will hold together for the long haul!
Now all of a sudden I feel like I've been playing with a grenade with no pin!
At least I was lucky enough to pick an oil that isn't GF-4 rated!
sigh! Now what to do?
John-
I just passed 14k miles on my FPBlack setup using Mobile1 15w50! I've been a bit paranoid and check the turbo for shaft play at every 3k Oil change. So far no signs of abnormal play in the shaft. Up to this point, I've been convinced that I have a daily driver combination that will hold together for the long haul!
Now all of a sudden I feel like I've been playing with a grenade with no pin!
At least I was lucky enough to pick an oil that isn't GF-4 rated!
sigh! Now what to do?
John-
Urk!
I just passed 14k miles on my FPBlack setup using Mobile1 15w50! I've been a bit paranoid and check the turbo for shaft play at every 3k Oil change. So far no signs of abnormal play in the shaft. Up to this point, I've been convinced that I have a daily driver combination that will hold together for the long haul!
Now all of a sudden I feel like I've been playing with a grenade with no pin!
At least I was lucky enough to pick an oil that isn't GF-4 rated!
sigh! Now what to do?
John-
I just passed 14k miles on my FPBlack setup using Mobile1 15w50! I've been a bit paranoid and check the turbo for shaft play at every 3k Oil change. So far no signs of abnormal play in the shaft. Up to this point, I've been convinced that I have a daily driver combination that will hold together for the long haul!
Now all of a sudden I feel like I've been playing with a grenade with no pin!
At least I was lucky enough to pick an oil that isn't GF-4 rated!
sigh! Now what to do?
John-
so Ted B........... what do you run? you seem very knowledgeable with oil as far as content and stuff goes. I run Amsoil 20w50 http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/aro.aspx . I know lots of engine builders that use Brad Penn and have good results, but it breaks down faster. But most people with built engines change the oil before it breaks down to much. Brad Penn comes from PA and PA is known for dirty oil, but its filtered 1000x im sure. Brad Penn oil bought out Kendall oil years ago, this oil has been around for over 30-40 years. The old Kendall used to be green also! Kendall was known to be great oil.. so i dont see how that would change now. Kendall still exists however.
Last edited by tscompusa2; Oct 12, 2010 at 12:15 PM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 491
Likes: 1
From: Redmond Washington
I just called Valvoline tech support (Dave) to get good numbers for the zinc and phos content of the VR1 synthetic "racing" oil. The information on their website for this oil is lacking and the FAQ's have wrong numbers for zn & P anyway.
Dave says 1400ppm zinc and 1300ppm phos.
This he says is true for both the synthetic VR1 and the conventional VR1.
One drawback, the synthetic base stock is group 3 and group 4 mixed, not completely group 4.
If it were on FP's list I think it would be yellow, but the list doesn't even show this oil, it only shows the conventional VR1 which is yellow.
Poking around on the web, there seems to be a lot of confusion about VR1. I would say it is a street/track oil, not a racing-only oil. It has all the stuff a street driven oil should have.
Here are pics, to hopefully reduce the confusion between the conventional and synthetic VR1:
[IMG]
[/IMG]
[IMG]
[/IMG]
Dave says 1400ppm zinc and 1300ppm phos.
This he says is true for both the synthetic VR1 and the conventional VR1.
One drawback, the synthetic base stock is group 3 and group 4 mixed, not completely group 4.
If it were on FP's list I think it would be yellow, but the list doesn't even show this oil, it only shows the conventional VR1 which is yellow.
Poking around on the web, there seems to be a lot of confusion about VR1. I would say it is a street/track oil, not a racing-only oil. It has all the stuff a street driven oil should have.
Here are pics, to hopefully reduce the confusion between the conventional and synthetic VR1:
[IMG]
[/IMG] [IMG]
[/IMG]
I just called Valvoline tech support (Dave) to get good numbers for the zinc and phos content of the VR1 synthetic "racing" oil. The information on their website for this oil is lacking and the FAQ's have wrong numbers for zn & P anyway.
Dave says 1400ppm zinc and 1300ppm phos.
This he says is true for both the synthetic VR1 and the conventional VR1.
One drawback, the synthetic base stock is group 3 and group 4 mixed, not completely group 4.
If it were on FP's list I think it would be yellow, but the list doesn't even show this oil, it only shows the conventional VR1 which is yellow.
Poking around on the web, there seems to be a lot of confusion about VR1. I would say it is a street/track oil, not a racing-only oil. It has all the stuff a street driven oil should have.
Here are pics, to hopefully reduce the confusion between the conventional and synthetic VR1:
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]
Dave says 1400ppm zinc and 1300ppm phos.
This he says is true for both the synthetic VR1 and the conventional VR1.
One drawback, the synthetic base stock is group 3 and group 4 mixed, not completely group 4.
If it were on FP's list I think it would be yellow, but the list doesn't even show this oil, it only shows the conventional VR1 which is yellow.
Poking around on the web, there seems to be a lot of confusion about VR1. I would say it is a street/track oil, not a racing-only oil. It has all the stuff a street driven oil should have.
Here are pics, to hopefully reduce the confusion between the conventional and synthetic VR1:
[IMG]
[/IMG] [IMG]
[/IMG]the valvoline is definitely safe.
I am glad someone openned a cleaner oil thread and i hope this thead stays on topic and educational.
i was asked to come in here and chime in and give out as much info i can, i am not at the office *** soon as i get back i will answer some of your questions.
Andy
i was asked to come in here and chime in and give out as much info i can, i am not at the office *** soon as i get back i will answer some of your questions.
Andy
ts, you are running a great oil on your BR engine 20w50, racing oils are not reccomended for cars that care about keeping the internals clean, detergents are important to keel oil galley/passages clean.
BULT ENGINE: 10W40, 20W50 or racing dominator 15W50 all have 1200 PPM + of zinc and phos
Stock internals with boltons: 10W30 racing dominator, 10w40, or 10W30 ATM i ran ATM myself for over 25,000 hard miles engine was stronger than a rock
Fully stock: ASO 5W30, or ATM 10W30
BULT ENGINE: 10W40, 20W50 or racing dominator 15W50 all have 1200 PPM + of zinc and phos
Stock internals with boltons: 10W30 racing dominator, 10w40, or 10W30 ATM i ran ATM myself for over 25,000 hard miles engine was stronger than a rock
Fully stock: ASO 5W30, or ATM 10W30
FP fits the Red and Black turbos with a steel on steel bushing. I was unaware of this. And while it may be a seemingly minor detail, it becomes important when it's time to get an oil change.
When the turbo sees high shaft speeds, that places tremendous pressures on the shaft bushing. Theoretically the steel on steel bearing should support greater loads than the softer brass part, but when two sliding steel-faced surfaces are subjected to that level of pressure, this is where the EP (extreme pressure) additive content of the oil prevents those two hard steel surfaces from scuffing each other to death over the long haul.
When the turbo sees high shaft speeds, that places tremendous pressures on the shaft bushing. Theoretically the steel on steel bearing should support greater loads than the softer brass part, but when two sliding steel-faced surfaces are subjected to that level of pressure, this is where the EP (extreme pressure) additive content of the oil prevents those two hard steel surfaces from scuffing each other to death over the long haul.
1. For me its going to be very important not to use an oil out of the viscocity range as the one reccomended by the OEM 10W30, as it is ok to go a grade higher 10W40 but NEVER to a 20W50 at least i wouldnt specially now with the new reds and blacks.
Why do i say this because now you have 2 similar metals and in the engineering world its a NO NO to design two moving parts that are similar metals in the case of the Red and Black using steel shaft riding on steel bearings, posibility of metal gauling.
So with the above said thick oils are a no no, becarefull with oil starvation and the thicker oils not getting into the fine places.
Now we all should understand why is so important for FP to have an oil with added Zinc and Phos, easy enough because they understand that similar metals can gaul up and they have decided the work around is using a race like type oil, high quality synthetic with high PPM of ZDDP.
its good to understand FP's design so we can apply the correct oils.
Last edited by apagan01; Oct 12, 2010 at 03:18 PM.
I just passed 14k miles on my FPBlack setup using Mobile1 15w50! I've been a bit paranoid and check the turbo for shaft play at every 3k Oil change. So far no signs of abnormal play in the shaft. Up to this point, I've been convinced that I have a daily driver combination that will hold together for the long haul! Now all of a sudden I feel like I've been playing with a grenade with no pin!
When Andy gets back on it, maybe he can explain to us why the Amsoil 10w-40 AMO doesn't have friction modifiers! "Making it ideal for motorcycles" and other wet clutch applications.
I thought we had pretty much agreed earlier that friction modifiers were a good thing and not to use wet clutch or motorcycle oils because they don't have 'em. Otherwise, I think AMO is one I would use.
The other thing the Amsoil guy could probably dig up is the zinc and phos numbers for the european 5w-40 Amsoil, and does that one have friction modifiers?
I thought we had pretty much agreed earlier that friction modifiers were a good thing and not to use wet clutch or motorcycle oils because they don't have 'em. Otherwise, I think AMO is one I would use.
The other thing the Amsoil guy could probably dig up is the zinc and phos numbers for the european 5w-40 Amsoil, and does that one have friction modifiers?
