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The Loft / EvoM Car Talk CornerThe landing pad for automotive discussions, news, articles, and opinions. A place for the community to kick back and chat.
Well that sucks but also really good. I will keep my eyes open for a good deal down here.
Thank you! I've always been into white cars and the Supra looks great that way, but I am dead set on yellow, especially if I'm overpaying. This will be the one time I don't shop for white lol
So, if you find anything in yellow, I'm your guy. Thanks!
TTX is entirely different compared to every other damper out there. On your typical monotube damper the damping force is provided by a pressure differential across the piston and the piston contains all the valving for the damper oil to pass through for both compression and rebound. On the TTX the piston is solid and has no valving; it basically acts as a pump. Instead of having a pressure differential across the piston and valving, the piston pumps the oil across remote valving packs to create damping force. The remote valving packs also allow for the damper to be converted from 2 - 3 - 4 adjustable without having to disassemble the entire damper.
The beauty of the design is that since there is no pressure differential across the piston, the damper is almost immune to cavitation. Also the damping force isn't influenced by gas pressure like monotubes are which makes TTX more predictable to set up, resulting in less variability between dampers. But probably the best benefit for the end user is there is zero cross talk between compression and rebound adjustments since both valving packs are separated by check valves. So when you adjust rebound, it's only changing rebound and the same goes for compression. Because of how bleed adjusters work, that isn't the case on monotubes so whenever you change rebound, you'll almost always have some affect on compression and it can take a lot of back and forth with adjustments to get them right where you want them.
yes, I'm aware the TTX is different than other shocks out there, the main point I was making is MCS is a step or 2 up from Ohlins R&T dampers, and TTX is the next step up that Ohlins offers. So I compared the MCS to that. But you're right, the TTX is unique, basically 2 shocks in 1 so each only does 1 job.
Originally Posted by ayoustin
High end monotubes do still work very well, Ohlins still builds them and Penske does some of the best monotubes. MCS are very good too but I don't think I'll ever buy them because they don't sell dampers with adjustable length bodies which means you're forced to adjust ride height entirely with the lower spring perch which means you have to change preload to change ride height. Adjustable length dampers take some more time to set up but ultimately allow a better ability to be tailored to a specific application.
you mean how race cars do it? there aren't any pro level race cars out there with adjustable length dampers cause it not really an adjustable length damper but just a shorter damper with an adjustable length body, meaning less travel, less oil capacity, less gas capacity, less cooling capacity... this is specifically the reason why Ohlins has binding issues on some cars.
adjustable length damper (body) are a cost saving measure which allows the same length shock to be used in more applications as a compromise. with a fixed length damper you have to have the right length shock for the application.
also the preload thing doesn't hold any merit because the weight of the car will compress the spring past the preload anyway. and if it doesn't then there's something else thats very wrong. the only thing is you'll usually need a helper spring with a fixed length damper. MCA (note A not S) does the adjustable body thing for their coilovers but they don't hide behind clever marketing and try to sell the bug as a feature, in fact they're pretty big on getting the right info out there. Even though they sell the adjustable body length coilovers they instruct to adjust the height using the spring perch adjusting "preload". here's a vid they did to show that the preload thing isn't a thing for cars.
edit: that being said, you can still have a great suspension setup with adjustable body coilovers, just said that the ideal is fixed body at the correct length for the application
Sorry didnt make that clear at all haha. But a tune does wonders. I really hope you get an unlocked car. That makes it worth the price. At a minimum get a good quality catted DP. Then tune. I got a MAP downpipe and have had no check engine light.
Suspension wise, for what you do, look into @razorlab build over mine. I'm mostly auto-x.
can I ask why a DP is a big deal? based on what I've seen its only worth about 10whp, with or without tune... does the stock cat melt with track use or something? is there another reason for getting it that I'm missing? hardly seams that the 10whp is worth the ~1k price tag most of these catted DP's are priced at
can I ask why a DP is a big deal? based on what I've seen its only worth about 10whp, with or without tune... does the stock cat melt with track use or something? is there another reason for getting it that I'm missing? hardly seams that the 10whp is worth the ~1k price tag most of these catted DP's are priced at
In general, it's usually to reduce heat/backpressure. In my other cars that's why I did it, anyway. HP wasn't a reason for me. Of course, different car, so others reasons, maybe ..?
In general, it's usually to reduce heat/backpressure. In my other cars that's why I did it, anyway. HP wasn't a reason for me. Of course, different car, so others reasons, maybe ..?
the heat/backpressure reduction makes sense, but my logic is if it picks up only 10whp on a car that picks up over a 100 on just a tune, the stock one isn't much of a restriction in the first place...? right? the fact that it picks up so much power with just a tune means there's tons of head room on the hard parts...
the heat/backpressure reduction makes sense, but my logic is if it picks up only 10whp on a car that picks up over a 100 on just a tune, the stock one isn't much of a restriction in the first place...? right? the fact that it picks up so much power with just a tune means there's tons of head room on the hard parts...
I plan on finally tuning my Supra after my next track day this weekend. I'm going to tune it 100% stock hardware first, then maybe finally install the MAP downpipe I have had sitting for the last seven months.
One disclaimer is that I am going to be tuning in a more linear torque curve because the rear gets overwhelmed so easily with the spiking torque hits most tunes have.
you mean how race cars do it? there aren't any pro level race cars out there with adjustable length dampers cause it not really an adjustable length damper but just a shorter damper with an adjustable length body, meaning less travel, less oil capacity, less gas capacity, less cooling capacity... this is specifically the reason why Ohlins has binding issues on some cars.
Race cars? You mean like Nascar, or maybe F1? Both use adjustable length dampers. Every single Nascar Cup car uses adjustable length Ohlins. I'm not sure where the preconceived notion of less oil and gas capacity came from on adjustable length dampers. That's entirely dependent on the damper cartridge used, how it's affixed to the chassis doesn't change that. If Ohlins has issues with their product like that it's because of improper cartridge sizing, not because the damper is adjustable.
adjustable length damper (body) are a cost saving measure which allows the same length shock to be used in more applications as a compromise. with a fixed length damper you have to have the right length shock for the application.
Again, these two are bound to each other in that way. Any adjustable length damper can be setup exactly the same as a fixed length damper provided the cartridges are the same size. I'd actually argue the cost works the other way around, it's cheaper to just weld some mounting ears onto the damper body than have to CNC machine an entire threaded mounting body to make the damper fit a vehicle.
also the preload thing doesn't hold any merit because the weight of the car will compress the spring past the preload anyway. and if it doesn't then there's something else thats very wrong. the only thing is you'll usually need a helper spring with a fixed length damper. MCA (note A not S) does the adjustable body thing for their coilovers but they don't hide behind clever marketing and try to sell the bug as a feature, in fact they're pretty big on getting the right info out there. Even though they sell the adjustable body length coilovers they instruct to adjust the height using the spring perch adjusting "preload". here's a vid they did to show that the preload thing isn't a thing for cars.
Preload does hold merit because that's how you corner balance a car (if you only have one spring). If you're using just preload to corner balance a car like with a fixed length damper, then you're sacrificing spring compression length. I'm not disagreeing about spring preload, that's not the advantage to an adjustable damper.
edit: that being said, you can still have a great suspension setup with adjustable body coilovers, just said that the ideal is fixed body at the correct length for the application
Responses in bold.
If a company is selling fixed length dampers and isn't asking each and every customer what their ride heights, corner weights, desired spring rates, and desired ride frequencies are then the damper won't be able to be optimized for that specific vehicle. MCS is literally the only high end damper company that sells fixed length dampers and if adjustable dampers were that inferior then other high end damper companies like Penske, Ohlins, and Nitron wouldn't offer them. MCS doesn't tailor every cartridge they sell to each platform, they're using off the shelf parts and making it fit the car, like every other damper company does.
I'm not saying fixed length dampers inherently don't work, they work exactly the same as an adjustable length damper, they're just lacking the ability to fine tune like adjustable dampers can.
On another note, if you'd changed the chassis of a car to gain compression travel, like with tubbing wheel wells, then you have no way to take advantage of that increased clearance with a fixed length damper.
Last edited by Ayoustin; Jun 16, 2022 at 10:10 AM.
Race cars? You mean like Nascar, or maybe F1? Both use adjustable length dampers. Every single Nascar Cup car uses adjustable length Ohlins. I'm not sure where the preconceived notion of less oil and gas capacity came from on adjustable length dampers. That's entirely dependent on the damper cartridge used, how it's affixed to the chassis doesn't change that. If Ohlins has issues with their product like that it's because of improper cartridge sizing, not because the damper is adjustable.
ok so I'm not an expert on nascar, but the googling I did I didn't see a single adjustable body length dampers... maybe my googling isn't up to snuff? you're gonna have to show me pics of a nascar suspension with that for me to believe you. I mean there might be low budget versions of "nascar style" cars that may used adjustable length bodies, but the top tier (idk how else to specify) nascar... imma need proof. and F1, come on dude... who are you kidding, everything on an F1 car is made custom to the exact size needed. I mean come on...
as far as less oil and gas, you're right, thats entirely dependent on damper cartridge used. and in 99% of cases thats smaller in adjustable length damper bodies cause in most cases you have to shorten it to make space for adjustable body. some applications do give you the opportunity to have a nice long shock (86 twins fronts for example) but most end up being compromized
Originally Posted by ayoustin
Again, these two are bound to each other in that way. Any adjustable length damper can be setup exactly the same as a fixed length damper provided the cartridges are the same size. I'd actually argue the cost works the other way around, it's cheaper to just weld some mounting ears onto the damper body than have to CNC machine an entire threaded mounting body to make the damper fit a vehicle.
see above for the first part. as far as cost, if you're making one set of shocks, yes, welding on some mounting ears might be cheaper. although you're still machining threads for the spring perch. but if you're making 100k+ units, its much cheaper to make 3 different cartridge lengths and make adjustable mounts to make it fit multiple applications. with fixed length dampers you gotta have like 15 different lengths, that means a lot of tooling changes, that drives up costs a ton in mass production.
Originally Posted by ayoustin
Preload does hold merit because that's how you corner balance a car (if you only have one spring). If you're using just preload to corner balance a car like with a fixed length damper, then you're sacrificing spring compression length. I'm not disagreeing about spring preload, that's not the advantage to an adjustable damper.
except you're not... did you watch that vid I linked? I mean sure you might lose a little, but still miles ahead of where you'd be with adjustable body dampers. I mean like I said you'll prolly require helper springs in most cases, but you need those for adjustable body dampers too to get the most out of them, otherwise you're severely limited in droop travel.
Originally Posted by ayoustin
If a company is selling fixed length dampers and isn't asking each and every customer what their ride heights, corner weights, desired spring rates, and desired ride frequencies are then the damper won't be able to be optimized for that specific vehicle. MCS is literally the only high end damper company that sells fixed length dampers and if adjustable dampers were that inferior then other high end damper companies like Penske, Ohlins, and Nitron wouldn't offer them. MCS doesn't tailor every cartridge they sell to each platform, they're using off the shelf parts and making it fit the car, like every other damper company does.
I'm not saying fixed length dampers inherently don't work, they work exactly the same as an adjustable length damper, they're just lacking the ability to fine tune like adjustable dampers can.
On another note, if you'd changed the chassis of a car to gain compression travel, like with tubbing wheel wells, then you have no way to take advantage of that increased clearance with a fixed length damper.
Ohlins and Nitron are the only ones that sell adjustable body length dampers... Ohlins did it specifically for their low cost (relatively speaking) line, not really sure why Nitron does it. Penske definitely only makes fixed length dampers. same with JRZ, Multimatic, Tractive, KW, Bilstein, etc. there might be a couple here and there, but most pro level shocks only make fixed length dampers.
ok so I'm not an expert on nascar, but the googling I did I didn't see a single adjustable body length dampers... maybe my googling isn't up to snuff? you're gonna have to show me pics of a nascar suspension with that for me to believe you. I mean there might be low budget versions of "nascar style" cars that may used adjustable length bodies, but the top tier (idk how else to specify) nascar... imma need proof. and F1, come on dude... who are you kidding, everything on an F1 car is made custom to the exact size needed. I mean come on...
If you type in "Nascar Ohlins" in google it's literally every photo. They're the sole suspension supplier for the next gen car. They had a car on display at PRI with these exact dampers on it. Sure looks adjustable to me...
F1 damper:
And in cases where it's not a threaded rod, they have the ability to change out the end eye for a different length end eye, that's still adjustable, things aren't welded to a fixed length.
as far as less oil and gas, you're right, thats entirely dependent on damper cartridge used. and in 99% of cases thats smaller in adjustable length damper bodies cause in most cases you have to shorten it to make space for adjustable body. some applications do give you the opportunity to have a nice long shock (86 twins fronts for example) but most end up being compromized
In many cases you don't have to shorten it to make space for adjustable bodies, case in point: the front of our cars and most mass produced cars on the road. And on that note, when it does have to be shortened there's almost always still at least 4" of damper travel, no car needs more than that if they're on tarmac. If you're using more than 4" of travel on tarmac you're either driving a trophy truck or your car is way under sprung.
see above for the first part. as far as cost, if you're making one set of shocks, yes, welding on some mounting ears might be cheaper. although you're still machining threads for the spring perch. but if you're making 100k+ units, its much cheaper to make 3 different cartridge lengths and make adjustable mounts to make it fit multiple applications. with fixed length dampers you gotta have like 15 different lengths, that means a lot of tooling changes, that drives up costs a ton in mass production.
You do realize that cartridges are just tubes and rod cut to length right? It doesn't matter how many lengths you offer it's the same amount of work to make them. And yes, even at 100k units it's still considerably cheaper to weld on mounting ears than tie up machines making extra complex parts. I literally run a business, I have to look at costs for stuff like this every day. It's almost always cheaper to pay a guy to lay a few beads than pay the machine shop for a couple more hours of machine time.
except you're not... did you watch that vid I linked? I mean sure you might lose a little, but still miles ahead of where you'd be with adjustable body dampers. I mean like I said you'll prolly require helper springs in most cases, but you need those for adjustable body dampers too to get the most out of them, otherwise you're severely limited in droop travel.
The vid made by the guys who preach that their stuff is the best because it's fixed length? Yea I saw it. Again, unless the company you're buying your coils from is asking specific setup details for YOUR specific car, then a fixed length damper won't be optimized for YOUR specific car. Most companies can get in the ballpark and that's good enough for the average enthusiast who doesn't want to dig deep and do all the leg work to optimize their setup.
Ohlins and Nitron are the only ones that sell adjustable body length dampers... Ohlins did it specifically for their low cost (relatively speaking) line, not really sure why Nitron does it. Penske definitely only makes fixed length dampers. same with JRZ, Multimatic, Tractive, KW, Bilstein, etc. there might be a couple here and there, but most pro level shocks only make fixed length dampers.
This sure looks like an adjustable length Penske to me... The reason why fixed length dampers are common with Euro companies like KW and Bilstein are because they have to comply with TUV regulations in order to sell coilover kits in Germany. They're not going to develop a fixed length damper and an adjustable damper for separate markets when most people don't even understand the difference.
I'm happy to agree to disagree on this. There's nothing to be gained by arguing any further, and I don't want to subject other posters in this thread to off topic banter.
I'm happy to agree to disagree on this. There's nothing to be gained by arguing any further, and I don't want to subject other posters in this thread to off topic banter.
just wanted to reply to concede that the nascar shock indeed looks length adjustable with that mount. and that specific F1 damper looks like it might be adjustable too but just cause there are some nuts near the heim joint doesn't mean its lenth adjustable, could just be for an easy way to replace the heims when they were. come think of it could be the same deal for the nascar damper.
also here's a pic of F1 dampers that are definitely fixed length. adjustable spring perch, but not body length
and congrats, you found a weird penske application that has an adjustable mount... which by the way is done in a way not to compromise shock length (kinda like the 86 twins application I was talking about)
here's an example of travel:
Ohlins with adjustable body lenth:
fixed length dampers
and front and rear the compression travel is limited by the tire hitting the chassis. absolutely not the case for the rear with the Ohlins, and thats the case for lots of applications
Well the changes I made to the Supra were well worth the money. I am running better times than people who used to destroy me. The car is a whole different animal now. It actually turns! I honestly have nothing bad to say about it except it still needs a driver mod. It's looking like I will be taking 2nd in class today. No way I will catch 1st. That guy and his car are something else. Hopefully I get my sway bars installed for the next race and can step it up even more.
Well the changes I made to the Supra were well worth the money. I am running better times than people who used to destroy me. The car is a whole different animal now. It actually turns! I honestly have nothing bad to say about it except it still needs a driver mod. It's looking like I will be taking 2nd in class today. No way I will catch 1st. That guy and his car are something else. Hopefully I get my sway bars installed for the next race and can step it up even more.
So many posts to scroll back to ..
Summary, por favor??
